Brodie 0:04 Welcome to Veritiv's Sustainable Design Lab podcast. I'm Brodie Van der Dusen.

Chris 0:08 And I'm Chris Bradley. And today, we're gonna dive into one of the most exciting material innovations in sustainable packaging, one that takes aim at replacing one of packaging's most stubborn problems, foam.

Brodie 0:22 Joining us is John Feltz, CEO and cofounder of CruiseFoam. Under John's leadership, CruiseFoam has developed a patented protective packaging solution made from natural materials like chitin and starch that work with existing supply chains and break down, like, organic matter after use.

Chris 0:38 In this episode, we'll unpack what it takes to make compostables like CruiseFoam perform in the real world, how brands are responding to these accelerating foam bands and EPR, and learn some lessons that CruiseFoam has learned from scaling at speed. It was a really exciting episode, and we're excited for you to hear what John had to say. So let's jump into it. Alright. So just to kinda kick us off here. Before you were really working with global brands or winning all these cool innovation awards for CruiseFilm, you were an engineer looking at a very broken system. Can you take us back to that original spark? What was really behind what you saw and what you were trying to solve and how cruise foam came to be? off here. Before you were really working with global brands or winning all these cool innovation awards for CruiseFilm, you were an engineer looking at a very broken system. Can you take us back to that original spark? What was really behind what you saw and what you were trying to solve and how cruise foam came to be?

John 1:29 Yeah. I'll definitely take you back. For me, you touched on in my background before cruise foam so much now was as a chemical engineer. I did my undergrad in chemical engineering, I did my master's in materials. But what really happened, I think, was the in between period of those two was, one, I went to school at UC Santa Barbara. So well, it's been somewhat connected to the ocean, you could say, through that experience. But one of the things that really stuck with me in you know, it doesn't directly tie to cruise flow necessarily, but it definitely impacted kind of my view on materials, what we take from this earth, and all that kind of, you know, that whole picture was off the Santa Barbara Coast is a bunch of oil rigs, and they sit adjacent to the Channel Islands. And there is well known, there is a lot of natural seepage in the area, but one of the dispositions was I used to go out and surf and you would be surfing on an amazing ocean break, but in the distance you see the Channel Islands and next to them are these oil rigs. And one of the things that just really almost slapped you in the face literally was as you would be surfing, there would be these just giant masses of tar, like four feet wide, just like basically they would take over your board. It was just extremely unpleasant being somewhere that you're going to connect with the ocean, the environment, and kind of be away and at peace with yourself and seeing that really just stuck with me. And when I graduated, I graduated o eight, which was terrible, time to graduate, but I was able to find a job doing in Santa Barbara for a company called Tetra Tech doing environmental consulting. And through this, one thing that really jumped out at me was the scale of some of the problems, because I'd go work and there was a consulting group. We did a lot of work for the army, the EPA, the navy, you name it, we did work for that government agency. And you start looking at Superfund RCRA sites and the scale of some of the pollution that we put into the water table through different operations and, like I said, not directly connected to what I do now necessarily with packaging and supply chain, but just the environmental impact that I think humans have had really just jumped out at me from that job. And I was like, oh, man. This is way bigger than I thought it was. And through that, I kinda wanted to redefine my career or where I was going. And so I went back to school, went up to University of Washington, and that's where I met my cofounder Marco Alondi and got exposed to this world of biopolymers. And through that, we honestly had the original spark from where it kind of all started surfing. We looked at kind of just the material he was using at the time, which was chitin, you know, one of the most abundant biopolymers on the planet. And he was doing a lot of interesting stuff, turning it into films, but for university research, that's never gonna see the light of day, just really far out there stuff. But we kind of really connected on this idea of it was a special material, what else could we do with it? And Marco is a bigger surfer, bigger surfer than I am, and we honestly just had that light bulb moment. We thought, well, we're making it into a plastic now. What other plastic kind of formats are there in the world? And one of the ones that just jumped out at us through surfing was foam. The core of a surfboard is predominantly polyurethane or polystyrene. And we thought, why can't we change that? Why can't we take this material that comes from the ocean and change one of the things that, you know, we really use to connect with the ocean, but is kind of made with not the best materials? And from that came down to Santa Cruz, spent the first year trying to do surfboards, but about a year in realized that was a good representation of one of the issues we were trying to solve around supply chains, but it wasn't really the problem, let's say, at scale. And that's when we turned around and it was really in a way, I guess, it's kind of how it works sometimes, you just get lucky. By trying to target a surfboard foam, it's some of the highest performing foam, like, anywhere besides maybe aerospace. Like, you have people riding 100 foot waves, like, this stuff has gotta be light, it's gotta be strong, and it's gotta take a punch. And we never quite got there with our bio foam, but by trying to hit that target, like, a year and a half in, we turned around and all of a sudden realized, oh, man, we got a foam that can really check a lot of the boxes when we look at performance for compressive strength, resilience. And And it's not apples to apples across the entire board, but we really noticed that we kind of crossed a threshold that a lot of biofilms, and I would say even to this day really, haven't been able to mimic really well. And so we realized we had something that could solve, I think, why we started CRUSFOAM to begin with was in essentially ocean plastics. And so that's kinda where it all culminated over a good ten year period, you could say. But, yeah, it's funny to look back on it. is day really, haven't been able to mimic really well. And so we realized we had something that could solve, I think, why we started CRUSFOAM to begin with was in essentially ocean plastics. And so that's kinda where it all culminated over a good ten year period, you could say. But, yeah, it's funny to look back on it.

Brodie 5:55 I love the idea of that of even, like, reaching for another target, but then being able to look back and realize how much progress you've made in all these different areas and not necessarily looking back thinking, like, oh, I didn't reach my goal, but really you hit so many other goals that you didn't maybe realize you had on that journey. And I think that's huge.

Chris 6:14 And you said you started out with chitin, but I know that's evolved over time, and so what is the primary material that you're using today for CRISPROM?

John 6:23 Yeah. We started with chitin. You know, that was kinda like the inspiration, I guess, you can say. We still have chitin. Chitin is in in our formula, but it's definitely a minority component. When we looked at the combination of performance, scale, and cost, chitin ain't gonna get you there. It'll probably get you the performance, but let me tell you, that cost is gonna be unfavorable. And so we started looking at what are other waste streams because we really wanted to identify things that weren't virgin, things that were kinda being lost through other industrial processes. And that's when we looked at a pretty well known form or material input, starch. And we started wanting to understand, are there upcycled supply chains we can tap into where you take things like a pea starch and you'd, you know, a lot of times at industrial scale, they'll take out the pea and then you'll have this casing that isn't really food grade and a lot of times will either get thrown away, maybe kinda crushed up and used as fertilizer and whatnot, but a lot of it we saw wasn't reaching its full potential. And so we really looked at where can we upcycle this and incorporate it. So right now we're predominantly starch, mixed out with chitosan, and then we have a handful of other things. We don't work with too many different materials, but everything we work with is compostable. And ideally, we try to get everything as much as we can to be bio based. There's considerations there when you look at performance cost and scale where the market, you have to balance those scales to a certain degree.

Brodie 7:44 Definitely. And I think foam is such an hot topic right now, I'll say.

John 7:49 I like it.

Brodie 7:51 There is a sense of maybe, I'd say, urgency in the space of foam with things like EPR and material bans in states like New York and California and Washington. A lot of those are, you know, on the coast. In your experience as brands are really facing that, what are they feeling? Are they feeling panic? Are they feeling motivated? Is it confusion? What's your experience? space of foam with things like EPR and material bans in states like New York and California and Washington. A lot of those are, you know, on the coast. In your experience as brands are really facing that, what are they feeling? Are they feeling panic? Are they feeling motivated? Is it confusion? What's your experience?

John 8:15 Yeah. All of the above for sure. It definitely feels like there is a momentum change in, specifically, the film space, most definitely. I think that's partly because a lot of companies at the larger scale have, I don't wanna say ignored, but maybe not prioritized scope three. And so now they're turning around and looking their scope three missions and saying, no crap. How do we tackle this quickly? And it's such a gargantuan beast. A lot of them don't know how to break down that problem. So little bit of hysteria mixed with confusion definitely lights this place on fire. And I think what we're seeing is there's definitely a big opportunity in foam specifically right now because there have been historically solutions in this space, but I think a lot of them haven't really addressed it at the foundational level. And I think you see that with other sustainable solutions, be it corrugate, pulp, and whatnot, they're entering the market in a way where they can be, call it manufactured, converted, whatever terminology you wanna use, into a wide range of applications. I think, historically, foam has been, hey, we're making a biofoam, but it can do one thing. And you wanna do anything else? Build up this really complex thing that costs a lot of money, you don't know how to work with it. And that's where, for us, where we're seeing a lot of engagement, excitement around what we built at CruiseFoam is we are trying to really tackle it at that fundamental level. How do we come in and offer a solution that is at the starting point for addressing a large breadth of applications? And again, it won't do everything. It's not meant to. But I think we're seeing those brands really gravitate is because they look at it and say, oh, wow, we can use our existing stakeholders. We know how to functionalize this very similar to how we've done for previous foams. And that is, I think, a offering or a technology that really hasn't been available in the foam space at scale. And I think that's where we're really excited, but it's still challenging. There's still a lot of people that look at it and they say, what is this? What do we do with this? And it starts at the beginning point of production all the way to, you know, the complexities around end of life. And you mentioned that, you know, the EPR, different legislations around The United States and not called EPR, but definitely existing in Europe and elsewhere, I think are great initiatives. I think these are things that we need the stakeholders at the table. We need the collaboration. We need to understand where this has to work holistically across the whole value chain. We can't just be saying, hey, let's just fix this one little nut caveat here, but all of a sudden forget the rest of how we got to that point. And I think from our point of view, that is paramount that we do that together and well, but quickly because it really needs to happen soon. ically across the whole value chain. We can't just be saying, hey, let's just fix this one little nut caveat here, but all of a sudden forget the rest of how we got to that point. And I think from our point of view, that is paramount that we do that together and well, but quickly because it really needs to happen soon.

Chris 10:51 And I really love the way that your technology has evolved over time. I think I have some of the original cruise foam that, you know, you can kind of melt it with water. And some of the latest stuff that I have is completely hydrophobic, and I love doing when I bring people into the sustainable design lab. We'll put it in water and show that it actually doesn't dissolve because that's a big question that people ask. And then even some of the densities of the foams that you've been able to get to where you can easily compare it now to polyethylene and other polyurethane type foams. And so it's pretty amazing, I think, how the technology has evolved.

John 11:29 I appreciate that. Yeah.

Chris 11:30 Yep. So one question I have for you is this kind of ongoing industry debate, I'm sure that this will resonate because every day when I'm talking to brands, it comes up compostable versus recyclable. And how do you help clients kind of navigate that decision, and what's your point of view on that kind of big debate? s: Yep. So one question I have for you is this kind of ongoing industry debate, I'm sure that this will resonate because every day when I'm talking to brands, it comes up compostable versus recyclable. And how do you help clients kind of navigate that decision, and what's your point of view on that kind of big debate?

John 11:54 Oh, man. That is the age old debate right now. There's no question. It's challenging. It's extremely challenging. When we look at CruiseFilm itself, one of the things that we wanted to understand was how do we try to create a material or packaging product specifically that has the capability, not that we say it should, but it has the capability to transcend manmade systems. Where when we look at recycling, we even look at an industrial composting, they're imperfect. They're unfortunately always gonna be imperfect. So we wanna make it where we can fit into that, where it makes sense. And right now, that's for us in compostability. But knowing that, hey, there's not a large infrastructure for compostability. And then you look at the flip side for recycling, there's just a lot of challenges around needing the larger collection and ways to take it back and recycle it effectively. We wanted to make something that could be earth digestible. And so heaven forbid, and the unfortunate scenario that does end up in our waterways, in our natural environments, is not gonna break down as quick as industrial composting, of course. I mean, anybody that knows anything about industrial composting, that's just reality. But it'll be gone in a year. It won't be taking five hundred years to go away. When I look at comparing recycling and composting together, we'd love to have a recycling product alongside a composting product. We haven't built fiber content into our products, so comparing that and or pairing that with corrugate and getting SKUs specifically recycling certified is extremely complicated and hard for us to do given where our product sits right now. And I'm not saying I don't think we have a way forward, but I do think there has to be a concerted effort for both recycling and composting. Recycling, especially if we look at fiber, look at corrugate, paper, aluminum, I think it is the top tier. It should be what we're striving for. You see the best recovery of fiber, the best reuse. And at the end of the day, these things maybe not aluminum, but fiber will, in theory, end up back in the Earth. It will degrade as a natural material. Where I have some problems is recycling of plastics because I see it as a shortcut to the end game, which is still the end game, that it's gonna get burned, end up in landfill. And, yes, we should recycle something as many times as we can, but having that be the only stop point of how we recover materials, I think is extremely short sighted and honestly losing a lot of value for if we can build this infrastructure in a way to maximize that capture. One of the things that a lot of people aren't privy to is organic materials like ours off breakdown, they emit methane, they emit CO2. It's it's nothing we've done to the materials, just what organic materials do. When you look at composting facilities and different geographies, one specifically is San Luis Obispo I've been down to, they have a continuous anaerobic digester, and it's amazing to see. It's honestly incredibly impressive. Big as a football field, two, three stories high, and it's continually being fed organic material that composts. They get soil, but what they do is actually capture the off gas that goes to a converter basically right next door, and all of the trucks that go and pick up the compost refuel from that station where they drop off the waste. And, again, it's not gonna work everywhere. There's complexities around it, but just seeing it, like, clearly can work. We just need to understand how we position it, where it's deployed, and where that support actually put it in the marketplace and capture that value is done most economically. And I think things like legislation space and EPR hopefully frames it where we need as many options we can to tackle this problem. And right now, we see compostability as as a really strong one that hasn't been explored quite enough for what we think it can do. ketplace and capture that value is done most economically. And I think things like legislation space and EPR hopefully frames it where we need as many options we can to tackle this problem. And right now, we see compostability as as a really strong one that hasn't been explored quite enough for what we think it can do.

Brodie 15:30 Totally agree. I think I love the idea of designing for the worst case scenario. I think that's really important. I love you know, there's so much work that's going into improving infrastructures both for recyclability and compostability, but it's not by far standards is not perfect. And so on the design stage, it's really important that we're thinking about the best case and the worst case and trying to navigate the trade offs that come with designing for each. Performance when it comes to compostability, especially newer materials like cruise foam, is is a big question. So what's the gap that most brands hit when they're trying to switch away from EPS or EPE or other kinds of fossil based phones into something like cruise foam? e trade offs that come with designing for each. Performance when it comes to compostability, especially newer materials like cruise foam, is is a big question. So what's the gap that most brands hit when they're trying to switch away from EPS or EPE or other kinds of fossil based phones into something like cruise foam?

John 16:18 Great question. The biggest thing we see, you know, is probably no surprise cost. I think there are gonna be some barriers around performance. You know, I think right now what we've seen cruise from really have the most value to bring to the market is we have really good insulation. We see it matching a, if not beating, most of the sustainable solutions on the market today, but really getting close to EPS, like, right on the doorstep of a seventy two hour installation profile, which is kind of where a lot of these pharmaceutical companies want us to be hitting. So I feel like performance isn't really the gap for us. When we look at some of the other sides of performance, if you're thinking protection, drop, definitely, there's gonna be areas there we can't play. Early on, maybe I won't name the company, but we try to do some appliances and, well, packaging the 200 pound appliances where all of the weight is on cruise foam didn't pan out, let's put it that way. But those are the things we've learned and we're learning now that when we look at the block and brace is kind of what we call it, there is an initial market fit that we see sensitive electronics fragile, you know, weight profile between 20 to 60 pounds roughly, and we're seeing that really be a strong fit. But ultimately, the biggest hurdle we see, and I think it's twofold, is the cost dynamic mixed with the scale. And the scale is not only about, in my opinion, just producing a lot of foam and not even just about producing on a large format, which is super important, like, we produce on a four foot continuous sheet and a lot of foam is brought into the marketplace on four foot by eight foot planks or on rolls. And so being able to introduce that is super important, but the real getting over the hurdle is the education, the buy in, the collaboration with the stakeholders, specifically the converters and distribution partners, because they need to understand that they can take this material as is, run it through their systems, get the same output, the same cost structure that they can then turn around to the large brands and say, hey, the CPS you've been buying for us for the last five years, well, now we've got something else and guess what? Cost is the same. We know how to work with it. It performs within range of what's acceptable for what you guys need. Let's go. But it's definitely getting over, I think, that latter hurdle of cost and just kind of scaled buy in from the value chain has been really tough because a lot of these bigger brands, they don't I don't wanna say they don't manage their packaging, but they're definitely not the ones in there cutting it up and putting it into their boxes. I mean, a lot of times they work with solution providers, clearly Veritiv knows this, where you guys are tasked with getting all the different components, getting all the different materials, designing the whole pack, and then you turn around to the brand and they're like, oh, yeah, this is great. Thanks. But they didn't have a heavy hand in putting all that together. And so I think having that real ecosystem tied together to understand how to functionalize this at scale and cost is super important. erials, designing the whole pack, and then you turn around to the brand and they're like, oh, yeah, this is great. Thanks. But they didn't have a heavy hand in putting all that together. And so I think having that real ecosystem tied together to understand how to functionalize this at scale and cost is super important.

Chris 19:02 I wanna go back to something that you mentioned. You talked a little bit about cold chain and some of the thermal capabilities of cruise foam, and that's one of the areas I'm most interested in. I think there's some really good applications, and the cold chain market is also something that's just been exploding with, like, the onset of GLP one drug shipments that are hundreds of thousands of these shipments are going out every week. And so I just wanted to get a little bit more insight from you about CruiseFoam and how does it compare to EPS and are you getting some wins here in this kind of cold chain space? t been exploding with, like, the onset of GLP one drug shipments that are hundreds of thousands of these shipments are going out every week. And so I just wanted to get a little bit more insight from you about CruiseFoam and how does it compare to EPS and are you getting some wins here in this kind of cold chain space?

John 19:37 Yeah. Definitely. So when we look at compared to EPS, you know, the biggest thing is R value. That's kind of the baseline to just and there's system R value. There's material R values. We don't have to go into the weeds there, but ultimately, we see R material hitting about a four r value, and a little bit less, but kind of hitting that mark. And that's what we see. Again, you mentioned it, Chris, there are certain areas in higher end EPS or cold chain that we're not gonna touch in the near term. But we're starting to crack into that one and a half pounds, maybe two pound, not quite, insulation on EPS where I can't name the name, but we just I shouldn't just, we've been working with them for about two months now switched over a veterinary medical provider for pets. So a little bit in the back door for pharmaceutical, but still a little bit medical that went from a six panel EPS to cruise foam. And they get the same cold chain, they get the same performance, and at the end of the day, they can turn around and communicate to their consumers and their base that you're not receiving something that is never gonna disappear off this Earth. And so where I think there's obviously food delivery, We don't play too much into that space. Two fold one, it's a little crowded. I think there's reasonably good solutions on the market in that space now. And I'm not saying I don't think we could do a little bit better, but we haven't put most of our focus on that. Where I think we've seen the most traction is in a little bit one tier up higher specialty foods, high in meats, high in seafoods, like I said, some medical stuff mostly run veterinary, where you need insulation, but you also need a level of protection where you're packing 40 pounds of meat, it's gonna shift in the pack, it's gonna move the different dynamics. And depending what cold chain solution you have, that weight could all of a sudden be 100% on the corner and now you have maybe a seam break or whatever insulation packaging in there, you get a break in the sealment, let's call it, and it's not working anymore. We've seen a lot of that in different cold chain environments where it's a mix of Wade, not so much drop, but kinda just impact protection mixed with cold chain. And I think that's a space where we're seeing a lot of opportunity for cruise foam.

Chris 21:43 Yeah. One area that I I've been really impressed in our own testing and use and of cruise foam in a cold chain application is, as you mentioned, when you have something like a six panel system, cruise foam has some flex and some give to it, so you can kinda compress it together, where EPS is very rigid. So as you mentioned, that box gets jostled around. You're gonna have edge loss and other types of problems in that, and it seems like CruiseSwim is definitely a better solution in those scenarios. anel system, cruise foam has some flex and some give to it, so you can kinda compress it together, where EPS is very rigid. So as you mentioned, that box gets jostled around. You're gonna have edge loss and other types of problems in that, and it seems like CruiseSwim is definitely a better solution in those scenarios.

John 22:13 Definitely. That's definitely what we've seen.

Brodie 22:15 So we help a lot of customers at the Sustainable Design Lab really understand the total cost of ownership when it comes to packaging and packaging solutions, especially when we're moving into something new or emerging material like we would refer to cruise foam as. And that's not just material cost, but also freight and storage and handling and maybe even tooling costs. And really, the total cost of ownership is really a lot of different factors. How does cruise foam really change the equation for a brand when it comes to total cost of ownership? we would refer to cruise foam as. And that's not just material cost, but also freight and storage and handling and maybe even tooling costs. And really, the total cost of ownership is really a lot of different factors. How does cruise foam really change the equation for a brand when it comes to total cost of ownership?

John 22:49 Yeah. I think the way we're looking at it is we wanna mimic as much as we can as the existing system that's in place and improve where we can. And so understanding that as you point is put out is very complex. There's a lot of layers to it. And, ultimately, when we see it is, as I said earlier, starting number one is we gotta lower the barriers for adoption and workability. And so that's where we hit a wall going into the beginning of last year, where we hadn't developed a continuous process of a four foot wide sheet. And we were trying to functionalize this and get into the market, and everybody was like, this ain't gonna happen. We don't even know how to work with this. And so breaking that down was number one, but then the total cost of ownership, you start looking at the converter level, the distribution level, and that's where it's like, what infrastructure do you have in place? What converting techniques do you have? And so we trialed with pretty much all of them, die cutting, water jetting, CNC, thermoforming, you name it. And there's definitely ones where we saw, hey, this is gonna be a barrier and a larger cost to basically you trying to work with this material. We can't focus on that right now. One that we don't do is water jet. I mean, we have good hydrophobic capabilities, but, again, water jetting 10 planks of cruise foam isn't gonna perform the same as you would be doing that for a polyethylene foam. And so we had to understand kind of those limitations. So when we go into the customer or the partner space, we can very clearly communicate where they're gonna have challenges, but where they're gonna have wins. And one of the ones that we really like, obviously, is we work really well with die cutting. And one of the things that we identified really quickly on that would be a huge, huge ownership cost is the waste component. Because you guys know, I'm sure, you die cut, you got a lot of cuttings, off cuttings that are sitting there, and you're like, what do we do with this? And a lot of times if depending where the geographies lie, that could be on the converter themselves. And so what we've really built in is the ability to recycle our foam very similar to polyethylene where we can recompound it and put it back into the foam. Right now, we've done up to 50%. We're commercializing the 20% recycled foam content. And so with that, it's really looking at, okay, if we're going to try to, I don't want to say beats polyethylene, but if we're gonna try to compete with them, where's one big gap of ownership cost that's gonna be huge if we don't get this right? And that's one that we checked off the box really quickly when we went to some of these converters and said, holy crap. You have so much polyethylene off cutting everywhere. What do you guys do with this? And they're like, well, here's our re pelletizing machine right here. And we're like, oh, that totally makes sense. And they were like, we have to build this into our process. And so we did, and, you know, it'll get better over time. But I think those, a lot of the learnings that when you're trying to bring a new material into the space, especially something like packaging, call it opaque, it's more just you don't know it until you're in it. You start seeing all these identifiers of, wow, that's why this is so complex and hard to do because there's so many variables at play here that you gotta get right to make this work. And I think that's what we've done a lot of work on at CruiseFilm over the last five years is just listening and trying to build a product that answers the need without causing more problems. why this is so complex and hard to do because there's so many variables at play here that you gotta get right to make this work. And I think that's what we've done a lot of work on at CruiseFilm over the last five years is just listening and trying to build a product that answers the need without causing more problems.

Chris 26:00 So there's this focus, I would say, on experiential sustainability and packaging that feels, like, meaningful or something that kinda tells a story to the end user. I guess, there's two parts to this question. The first is, sometimes when you see cruise foam, you may not know what it is. It may just look like fossil based foam. So how do you combat that, and what kind of consumer facing stories are being told, or how is that kinda storytelling kinda play into your business? user. I guess, there's two parts to this question. The first is, sometimes when you see cruise foam, you may not know what it is. It may just look like fossil based foam. So how do you combat that, and what kind of consumer facing stories are being told, or how is that kinda storytelling kinda play into your business?

John 26:32 Yeah. That's a great question. Because that is one of the things that we get. I mean, our foam is off natural white. So first thing you see, you say, well, that's gotta be a fossil based plastic product. And, definitely, that's a question we've got. And on the front end, we've had considerations around do we color it, do we put branding on it, we have the ability to print our foam, we can color our foam pretty much whatever we want. It's obviously white, so it takes color pretty well. There's some considerations we've had on that as far as performance. You color something black, all of a sudden, the insulation performance maybe isn't quite as good as it was when it was white. And then there's the idea of branding behind that. Do we make it an ocean blue for the block embrace space? So that's something we've been ongoing discussing. But as you guys are probably aware, one decision here at the beginning has a trickle effect down the entire commercialization go to market where does that blue now compete with other brands that may wanna use it or, like I said, it impacts the cold chain performance. So, for us, a lot of it is about really educating and bringing the messaging to the consumer through the brand as a holistic message, really combining the product with the packaging in a way when the consumer gets it, they feel more connected to the actual supply chain and their involvement in it. And a lot of the stories we've had that I think are really amazing is we work with a lot of different ocean tech companies, you know, abalone, we do different seafood, things like that. Same with the Wild Ideal Buffalo deal and different meats. So there's a lot of ways in which our consumers themselves are already very intertwined into understanding that ability for this to go back into the earth. And I think having them be able to amplify that through either home composting when it's available or, unfortunately, the not so widespread industrial composting is one big winner. But the other thing that we're really trying to start to understand is there are ways to reuse our material. One, through either recycling, which is a little more complex from a b to c point of view. But we do have a fairly durable product and what we've been trying to see is there are ways in which we can build into the brand message of the consumer story where people, once they get it, yeah, crumple it up and put it in your soil or compost if you want, but also look to reuse it in different applications. You know, a lot of people reuse it for just one woman as I love her to dust. She's a local woman that does, like, skateboard competitions. And she's not packaging this for anything, supply chain, cold chain. She just reuses our foam all the time to package her skateboards and ship them on plan to go to her competitions. And it's those types of things that until people are doing it, you're like, oh, man, I wouldn't have thought of that. And those types of stories are just really fun because you start seeing this widespread kind of excitement around not only what it's doing now, but what how else can we think about what it might be capable of? And I think that's a fun part of getting it out into the marketplace. h, man, I wouldn't have thought of that. And those types of stories are just really fun because you start seeing this widespread kind of excitement around not only what it's doing now, but what how else can we think about what it might be capable of? And I think that's a fun part of getting it out into the marketplace.

Brodie 29:18 Definitely. And I I love the idea of meeting all these people who are just doing things differently than you do or that I do or we do, and I think that's why it's so important for us all to be in an ecosystem, like you mentioned, of us working, collaborating, building off of ideas, and things like that in order to really make a difference in the industry, the space, the planet, but also for these innovations, really cultivating the innovation. So we ask every guest this, and I'd really love to hear your perspective, so get ready. When you think about the future of packaging, what's one thing that makes you the most hopeful?

John 29:55 Man, that is a really good question. I would have to say what makes me the most hopeful is it's a weird thing to say, but I think the one benefit that we saw coming out of COVID is I do believe over the last couple years, call it generationally, I don't know what is it gen x, these these, gen z, I'm not sure. There's been a perspective change, I think, on people's influence connectivity and real involvement that they can have in, I would say, in general supply chains, but more in driving real change through brands. And I think this is partly defined through social media, if you wanna say that, but I do think there's been a palpable change in people's desire to wanna be a voice and the impacts we're having across different supply chains. And specifically for packaging, I think what's exciting is you're seeing a buy in across that value chain that I've been seeing because we're starting to actually have real solutions come to the table that can check the boxes across that stakeholder system. And I think with that, most of the brands, most of the converters, distribution, packaging providers, even the big foam producer c suites have told me to my face, we see this is where the market's going and this is where we wanna go, but there hasn't been enough solutions that don't require the entire breakdown of the infrastructure that's been built over the last hundred years. And I think we're at that precipice moment where you have that technology clicking on, you have the excitement of the consumer and actually being able to drive that change, and you have that alignment really coming together that I don't think has been possible before. So for me, that's what makes me hopeful, but I think you hit it right on the head, Brodie. We need that collaborative table to come together and say, okay, we're at this moment, how how do we actually push this instead of just letting it go by the wayside? ly coming together that I don't think has been possible before. So for me, that's what makes me hopeful, but I think you hit it right on the head, Brodie. We need that collaborative table to come together and say, okay, we're at this moment, how how do we actually push this instead of just letting it go by the wayside?

Chris 31:43 Well, I think this has been an awesome conversation and really appreciate innovators like you who really are driving the future of packaging. Keep up the great work. We love your products and are looking for what's coming next. Do you have any insights or input in anything that you are working on that you can at least let us know maybe coming down the pipe?

John 32:05 I really appreciate being on. You both are awesome. Yeah. I think we're producing mainly on the East Coast now. Expect some pretty exciting announcements in some of these areas I touched on that maybe you haven't seen sustainable materials play in, specifically, you know, some of the medical space, but you may also see cruise foam on the West Coast pretty soon on a bigger presence. So time will tell, but I think we're looking how we can really broaden cruise foam footprint both here in The US and as we start looking over to the international space, possibly Europe. So some exciting things coming, but I think it's gonna be a good year for cruise foam and I think sustainable materials in general.

Brodie 32:38 Couldn't agree more.

John 32:40 Thank you. Cheers, guys. No. This is awesome. I appreciate it.

Chris 32:46 Well, that was a really exciting conversation. It's always good talking to John. I think he's really insightful. I love his passion and another purpose led individual.

Brodie 32:57 Yeah. And I love his take on progress and how his journey is not necessarily a straightforward one as they're aiming for surfboards and then have pivoted into foams realizing how much they've done and how it could be adapted into different markets like packaging that he wasn't really expecting, but has had such a huge impact already. And as they grow and scale, I think it's just gonna be bigger and bigger.

Chris 33:21 And I think what's been really fun in the design lab as we've worked with CruiseFoam over the years now and seeing the evolution of their technology, it's gotten so much better. And we're seeing lots of new applications such as in cold chain and even these different densities of foams. It's really becoming a ready replacement to a lot of the products that you really just couldn't replace before. So we need more companies like CruiseFoam.

Brodie 33:48 Totally agree. I think that they're an easy one to bring to customers and to brands and show them what's possible. We talked a little bit about that recycling versus composting debate to conversation that's currently happening, and I think that if a brand is interested in being compostable packaging and that's their goal and their aim, cruise foam is a really great option. g to customers and to brands and show them what's possible. We talked a little bit about that recycling versus composting debate to conversation that's currently happening, and I think that if a brand is interested in being compostable packaging and that's their goal and their aim, cruise foam is a really great option.

Chris 34:09 Hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you did, please like it, and please maybe share this with somebody that you think would find it interesting. As always, we're here cultivating innovation in the field of sustainable packaging, and we're excited to bring innovators like John and others to you each week. See you next

John 34:32 time. Thanks.