Brodie 0:05 Welcome back to the Sustainable Design Lab Podcast. I'm Brodie Van der Dusen.

Chris 0:08 And I'm Chris Bradley.

Brodie 0:09 And on the show, we sit down with the innovators and the leaders who are rethinking packaging and sustainability from the ground up. At the lab, we're not just watching innovation unfold, we're cultivating it and sharing the story shaping a more circular future.

Chris 0:21 And today on the show, we're joined by Dylan Baxter from PlantSwitch. Now PlantSwitch is working on plant based home compostable materials designed to replace traditional plastics, especially in applications where end of life has historically been a challenge.

Brodie 0:37 In this conversation, we'll explore what it actually takes to make something compostable, how it works in the real world, where they make the most sense, and how material innovation connects to infrastructure and behavior. So, Dylan, you're building in a space that has a lot of people debating. Compostability, recyclability, there's lots of conversation and discourse around those two topics. What made you believe that compostables were worth going all in on?

Dillon 1:10 So I think when you think about the problem from a first principle standpoint, the issue is waste. And the key is how do we eliminate the waste that we've created from using these products, specifically plastic, that take, you know, million years to make the raw material. We make it into a product that lasts for just a few seconds, and then we throw it away, and it lasts for another thousand plus years. It's not a good system. And so when we thought about how do you solve that system, you need to solve the end part, and you need to shorten that time frame significantly. And you need to have a product that when it goes away, it turns into basically not it goes back into the environment. So when we talk about compostables, I think it's important to clarify the difference between compostables and zero waste products. Compostables, the implication is that they have to go to a certain composting system in order to break down, and that's what the majority of products have been historically. And while there's a lot of good things about that, it's not fully solving the problem because then it's not waste. The problem that we have is that these products enter waste streams, and so they get out into the environment. And so the problem that needs to be solved is not, okay, what happens when it's disposed of perfectly, it's what happens when it gets into the environment and actually causes waste. And that's what we designed a PlantSwitch to solve. It's a truly zero waste product that will biodegrade in the natural environment. It doesn't have to go to a specific compostable infrastructure or solution even though, obviously, it's great if it does, but we tried to solve the actual problem, not just, you know, create another product that kind of needs a whole another set of problems to solve that product, if that makes sense. tural environment. It doesn't have to go to a specific compostable infrastructure or solution even though, obviously, it's great if it does, but we tried to solve the actual problem, not just, you know, create another product that kind of needs a whole another set of problems to solve that product, if that makes sense.

Chris 2:51 Yeah. I think it makes a lot of sense. On this podcast, we've been calling it the holy grail of packaging, trying to find that product or that if it winds up in any stream at the end, compost bin, the waste in the ocean, or ideally even in a recycling stream, that it can have a good end of life. So this whole compostable space really sparks a lot of opinions in packaging. It definitely seems to be highly contested. Why do you think the category is so polarizing?

Dillon 3:21 Well, I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that these compostable products have to be dedicated or diverted to a composting stream in order to actually break down. And if they don't, unfortunately, they're still not breaking down into the environment, and, again, thus not really solving the waste problem. And then it kind of compounds on that because when it has to go to a composting facility, there's a lot of burden that's been placed on the composters to have to separate between a product that's labeled compostable versus not, and how do you identify that, and then how do you do that at high scale and high volume. And so, you know, I look at it as, like, we had to make one step in the right direction, and I think it was a step. But it for sure wasn't a solution. It was just an alternative. And that's a big thing that we focus on at Plan Switch is, are we making solutions, or are we making alternatives? Those are two very different things.

Brodie 4:11 I like that difference. I see the word a lot alternative as it's trying to be like a softer version, but I think, you know, the work that we get to do doesn't need a soft solution. It needs a really strong solution. And so in your words, can you walk us through what PlantSwitch is actually making? What is the material? How is it produced? And where is it designed to be used? as it's trying to be like a softer version, but I think, you know, the work that we get to do doesn't need a soft solution. It needs a really strong solution. And so in your words, can you walk us through what PlantSwitch is actually making? What is the material? How is it produced? And where is it designed to be used?

Dillon 4:34 So what we've made is a material that feels and functions like plastic, and it's manufactured in very much the same way as plastic, but it's made from bio derived content, actually bacteria. And then when it goes into the environment, the nature looks at it like food. So it's eaten by microorganisms. It's broken down like you would have a banana peel or a leaf. So it decomposes naturally, and it's also made from natural resources. The way that we do that, the technology is there are bacteria that when they are fed an energy source, they actually build a polymer. So they're fed this energy source, and then they reconstruct a polymer, and that polymer looks pretty darn like plastic. And so it has a lot of the same functionality from a mechanical property standpoint as traditional plastic that's made from oil, but it's made from this renewable resource. And because of that, nature's able to break it down and eat it. So it's a pretty fascinating material. It actually does occur in nature. What we've done is develop the technology to take this naturally occurring thing and make it at scale and, importantly, make it at a price point that makes sense for large enterprise customers. Because as much as we all wanna do the right thing, none of us are gonna pay 10 times as much for, you know, something different. It has has to make sense I can opt with it too.

Brodie 5:48 Absolutely.

Chris 5:49 We've been big fans of PHAs and other materials like that, and I think you just double clicked on one of the biggest challenges we've seen with it is in its raw state or as a pure polymer, it's super expensive. So how are you able to achieve some of that those cost economics? I did eat my lunch yesterday with one of your forks, and, uh, I mean, it was it was an awesome product. So I was sitting there saying, this is fantastic, but how are you gonna hit the right price points? state or as a pure polymer, it's super expensive. So how are you able to achieve some of that those cost economics? I did eat my lunch yesterday with one of your forks, and, uh, I mean, it was it was an awesome product. So I was sitting there saying, this is fantastic, but how are you gonna hit the right price points?

Dillon 6:19 So cost has been one of the key guiding principles in everything we've done for development because we understand that this is a cost sensitive industry. One of the main unlocks for us has been leveraging things like agricultural waste streams, upcycling a product that is essentially a waste stream already. Because of that, there's not a high feedstock cost associated with it, and developing the technology to where you can utilize it within the polymer itself and the product or as a feedstock, that all helps to reduce that cost from where PHA has been historically. Like you said, PHA has been around for a while, but it's been so prohibitively expensive that it doesn't make sense for the applications where it's best suited for, which is really disposables. And so that's from a technical side. We've done a lot of things there. We've also done some things from a business strategy where we've been able to vertically integrate our production. We've been really thoughtful about how we take everything from the start to the finish, bring it under one roof. That's helped our development cycles. That's helped our production costs. And we've also done some things like relocating to lower cost areas like Asia. And so everything that we do is with that guiding principle.

Brodie 7:27 Which is critical to get anything across anything implemented for sure. You You know, I think one of the biggest criticisms of compostables is infrastructure or maybe lack of in many areas. How are you guys thinking about that? like Asia. And so everything that we do is with that guiding principle. Which is critical to get anything across anything implemented for sure. You You know, I think one of the biggest criticisms of compostables is infrastructure or maybe lack of in many areas. How are you guys thinking about that?

Dillon 7:43 So our product doesn't have to go to a composting facility to be zero waste. And, again, we solve the problem of waste first and foremost. If this stuff doesn't end up in the proper stream, what's happening? And so that's what we've solved with PlantSwitch. Now we're the biggest advocates of composting infrastructure. I think we need more of it. We need to divert our food waste. Obviously, food waste to landfill is a big problem in and of itself. So the more that we can encourage and drive composting infrastructure, the better we're all going to be for litany of reasons. However, again, we solve waste. And so when ours goes to the compost facility and they compost it, we love that. It's fantastic. But we're also mindful of the fact that that's unfortunately not happening at the rates that we would like it to, And we also empathize with the composters who are just trying to do the best job that they can. Uh, it's pretty difficult when you have eight different flavors of fork that you've gotta sift through to see whether that's going to fit in your system. That's a tough thing to scale. And so, you know, I think there's a world in which all of the packaging that's used can be disposed of in the same stream as food. And once that's the case, you don't have to worry about that contamination issue as much, but that's not today. That's gonna take, you know, years of partnerships like we've developed that are helping bring sustainable solutions to the forefront, and we'll get there. I'm very optimistic about that, but that's kind of that future optimal state of compostables packed.

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Chris 9:38 And do you see compostables as a material solution, or is it part of a broader system shift around the way that we think about waste? Fiber expansion, natural polymers, refill systems, and a real shift towards more accountable data driven sustainabledesignlab.com or check the link in the show notes. And do you see compostables as a material solution, or is it part of a broader system shift around the way that we think about waste?

Dillon 9:48 Well, both are true, but we've approached it from the material standpoint. And, again, it's going back to the solution versus alternative. If you have created an alternative, but then it needs x, y, and z to actually be better, it's not solving the problem. And so be better, it's not solving the problem. And so solving the problem from the original material, we think, is critically important to help get that stigma away from the compostables industry. I don't think anyone would have a problem if they knew, hey. You know, we want this to be composted, but if doesn't, we can also feel good. It's not gonna last. And so that's the way that we think about it, and, hopefully, more and more products like ours help encourage the acceleration of composting and infrastructure. But, again, I think the material is the biggest place to focus on and where we've dedicated our efforts.

Chris 10:33 I'd like to actually build on that question for a minute because one of the things about compostables are the technology that you're building that really is truly biodegradable and compostable. How do you reconcile when you're kind of, like, in this group of compostables where some of them are, like, PLAs and they're only industrially postable, and you have something that's actually closer to something that really is gonna fully decompose in any scenario? How do you deal with that?

Dillon 11:00 It's a difficult problem because we do get lumped in in the same bucket from a marketing standpoint and also from the legislation standpoint. We're getting treated the same way as PLA, which is just technically inaccurate. And so it's kind of a thin line of you don't want to necessarily demonize PLA. It's not bad in and of itself. It's just not the final solution. And so we try to just kind of talk about ourselves as, hey. This is what we are, and this is our solution. Not as much that's the bad thing, but it is a tricky thing. I kinda wish the letters were further apart, PLA and PHA. Like, can we have a little more differentiation there? So we brand our product as Compost Zero. That's our raw material, and we're going to be really pushing the marketing this year as we get into the market in a bigger way on trying to tell the consumer and the broader audience that message of, hey. There is a solution that's out there, and it's different than what you've seen for the last decade.

Brodie 11:55 I maybe wanna follow-up on that piece on the consumer behavior side. You know, I think that a lot of the conversations we're having are we can make the perfect package, but unless a consumer knows what to do with that, it's kind of a mute point, or that's at least the theory going around, and I get that a lot. How are you guys handling or influencing consumer behavior? er behavior side. You know, I think that a lot of the conversations we're having are we can make the perfect package, but unless a consumer knows what to do with that, it's kind of a mute point, or that's at least the theory going around, and I get that a lot. How are you guys handling or influencing consumer behavior?

Dillon 12:17 We've frankly not focused as much on influencing the consumer behavior as just providing the right product. And that kinda goes back to your earlier question of saying, you focus material or you focus on changing behavior. I think it's hard to change consumer behavior. It's a worthy mission, but it's a lot harder than maybe just having a solution in which you don't need to change the behavior. And so my kind of dream state, like I said, is when you go to a restaurant or when you're eating a food product, all of that packaging that you have can just go into the compost. There's not a difficulty of, is this recyclable? Is this compostable? Is this landfill? Like, at the end of the day, I mean, you need to have, like, a master's degree in this stuff to throw this stuff away correctly. Right? That's not a good system. So that's how we feel about it is try to solve it more from that first principles than say, hey. Everyone needs to change what they're doing and be smarter about that. I have another soapbox about the whole recycling thing.

Chris 13:12 A lot of our listeners are packaging engineers or sustainability leaders. And so for those that are listening, how should they evaluate whether compostables make sense for their application?

Dillon 13:24 Well, it comes down, as always, to cost, quality, and performance, essentially. So when we say performance, we talk about end of life performance as well. And so there are different products with different requirements and limitations from a technical standpoint. Like, is this going to work for your specific application first and foremost? If it doesn't, that's a dead in the water. Is it going to be too expensive and not something that you can pass to your consumer? Then that also prevents it from being commercial. But then I think also, you really don't wanna solve those first two, but then the end of life hasn't been solved. And it's like, okay. We've we've added this premium. We've done all this work and developed this application. But at the end of the day, it's not going to end up in the stream that's necessary for it to actually be, you know, composed. Right? And so thinking about that holistically is very important. And it's a tough problem to solve because even, you know, our material, we're still in the early stages of developing it across an array of applications. We've done a lot of great work. It's working on a lot of different applications, but we still couldn't really go make a a PET water model just yet. And so there's still really no solution for that. So, hopefully, we're the company that solves that. But if you're a packaging engineer trying to solve a problem that hasn't been solved yet, I don't know what you do. You know? It's a it's a tough one. , but we still couldn't really go make a a PET water model just yet. And so there's still really no solution for that. So, hopefully, we're the company that solves that. But if you're a packaging engineer trying to solve a problem that hasn't been solved yet, I don't know what you do. You know? It's a it's a tough one.

Brodie 14:44 And you touched on this a little bit, but we ask all of our guests, you know, when you think about the future of packaging, what's one thing that gives you hope?

Dillon 14:52 I think I see a lot of cool solutions that are being developed, not just ours, but, you know, in other industries as well, where it's like, okay. There's a real road map for these alternative materials to actually be adopted and actually do what they say that they're going to do. And so, again, like, I think trying to make it as simple as possible is the end goal. And I do see a path to where, like I said, you can have all of your food and all of your food packaging go into one stream, and it gets composted and goes back into the earth in a truly circular way. And that's super exciting. Right? Because that solves not only a lot of waste issues. It solves, you know, greenhouse gas emissions and, you know, landfill leakage and all these other things. So I'm very optimistic being in the industry and seeing all the things that are being developed, and, you know, hopefully, we're a big part of that journey into the future.

Brodie 15:43 Well, we had a great meeting with your team. I think we've mentioned that before this we started recording, but I feel really excited about some of the solutions that I saw and a bunch of ideas for how we can implement and be able to replace plastics where applicable. So thank you so much for your time for being able to join us. I'm excited for what comes next for you guys and excited to see how we can work together.

Chris 16:07 Yeah. I think you guys are doing really amazing stuff. I was pretty excited by seeing some of the samples yesterday and, again, have my lunch with it, and it's great.

Dillon 16:15 Thank you. Thank you for having me. Enjoy the conversation.

Brodie 16:27 Today's conversation really highlighted how complex compostables are when you look beyond just the material. We talk a lot about, like, recyclability versus compostability, and I think the huge difference is that behavior and even just, like, infrastructural access where you have obviously much more access to recycling than composting here in The US, but does that make it better? So when I think that the actual material is it's not really designing compostables is not just about what it's made from, but really understanding the infrastructure that it's going into to be able to tell you that. Right.

Chris 16:59 And kinda what stood out to me was that, again, the balance between innovation and reality, and it's really a reminder that materials alone don't solve the problem. We talk about materials a lot. PHA, which is kind of the core material within PlantSwitch along with some other bio materials,

Dillon 17:17 is ris: And kinda what stood out to me was that, again, the balance between innovation and reality, and it's really a reminder that materials alone don't solve the problem. We talk about materials a lot. PHA, which is kind of the core material within PlantSwitch along with some other bio materials, is

Chris 17:17 a really cool material, but it's really about the infrastructure, the behavior, and the real world constraints that are gonna drive the ultimate outcome of a product like this.

Brodie 17:26 Absolutely. You know, we're really grateful for Dylan for sharing his perspective and sharing a little bit about the work that the PlantSwitch team is doing. If you enjoyed this conversation, give us a follow, leave us a five star rating, and share it with a colleague who's working in packaging or sustainability.

Chris 17:40 And if you like more resources, you like to see some case studies, or learn about our upcoming episodes, you can find them through us at the Sustainable Design Lab. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.