Brodie Vander Dussen 0:05 Welcome back to the Sustainable Design Lab Podcast. I'm Birdie Vander Dussen.

Chris Bradley 0:10 And I'm Chris Bradley. And today, we're exploring a part of packaging that's often invisible, but it's absolutely central. What happens after people throw it away?

Brodie Vander Dussen 0:20 Today, we are joined by a friend of the lab, Julia Mangan. She's the director of sustainability and government affairs at Recology. I'm so excited to get to share this conversation with you guys today. So if you don't know Recology, they are the company who's pioneered curbside composting and modern recycling, especially here on the West Coast.

Chris Bradley 0:38 Exactly. And Recology has been at the forefront of treating waste as a resource. This is a really big concept, and they pushed innovation in recycling and organics recovery. And they've really showed that the end of a product's life is actually the beginning of a whole new cycle. And Julia has been part of that story for more than a decade, shaping how communities and brands really rethink about recovery and design for circularity.

Brodie Vander Dussen 1:06 In our conversation, she really helped pull the curtain back from what goes on at Recology and beyond that in the infrastructure we have here in The US. She helps us look at what actually happens when packaging leads to consumers' hands. Where are the gaps in our current infrastructure? What is her hope for the infrastructure? What's real versus myth when it comes to compostability and recyclability?

Chris Bradley 1:29 And I'd say it's an honest and sometimes uncomfortable look at the messy but essential part of circularity, and it's exactly the perspective that I think that we need if we're serious about making perspective that I think that we need if we're serious about making packaging and more specifically, sustainable packaging work in the real world. Let's jump into it.

Brodie Vander Dussen 1:55 So, Julia, thank you for being a part of the show. We're really excited to have you.

Julia Mangin 1:59 Thanks for having me.

Brodie Vander Dussen 2:00 You've been at Recology for over a decade starting as an intern and now worked your way up to director of sustainability and government affairs. What first sparked your interest in sustainability, and what continues to inspire you about circular systems and end of life side of packaging? 0:02:00] Brodie Vander Dussen: You've been at Recology for over a decade starting as an intern and now worked your way up to director of sustainability and government affairs. What first sparked your interest in sustainability, and what continues to inspire you about circular systems and end of life side of packaging?

Julia Mangin 2:17 It's a privilege to have been somewhere for ten years, I think. And I definitely think that when I started as an intern, I was not expecting to be at Recology for ten years, but it's, it's been a company, and rather like an industry where I've learned a lot and every day keeps me there because I'm always learning. But kinda how I got into it was, you know, I think as a kid and into my, like, young adulthood, was always interested in the environment and kinda did all the traditional things, you know, felt like, oh, I'm gonna recycle and save the world, and, you know, studied environmental science in college. Um, I think even when I was a kid, I, like, almost started a little side hustle of collecting cans. I collected cans for my family and stuff and would take them to the deposit depots, but started doing it for neighbors and family. And my dad was trying to make it into, like, a real business for me. It didn't pan out like that. But, you know, I found Recology just through, I mean, where I went to school, um, in Berkeley, and Recology was in San Francisco and started as an intern and have been through many roles over the ten years, but loving the role I'm in now.

Chris Bradley 3:34 Julia, so it's been great knowing you the last couple of years, and I've really appreciated your insights, especially because a lot of the people that are probably listening to the show are packaging engineers or people who are directly involved in packaging. So if there's one thing that you wish that every packaging designer could understand about what really happens to their materials once they enter the waste system, what would that be? se a lot of the people that are probably listening to the show are packaging engineers or people who are directly involved in packaging. So if there's one thing that you wish that every packaging designer could understand about what really happens to their materials once they enter the waste system, what would that be?

Julia Mangin 4:02 Yeah. Lots to choose from. I think I'd probably say that a lot of what is what can be recovered, at least when we're talking about it entering the traditional, like, curbside recycling system, is that if there's no end market, it won't be recycled. And just simple as that. Like, it's not about, you know, does Recology want to accept it? It's not even about, do we have the equipment to accept it, to sort it? It's really that at the end of the day, if there's no one on the back end that's gonna buy that material from us, we can't recycle it. We can't recover it. We can invest millions of dollars into our facilities to have state of the art equipment to collect every single type of packaging if we wanted to. But we don't do that, and we can't do that because there's no one to buy it on the back end. And so I think there's, you know, a lot of people out there that will say, like, well, yes. Like, PVC is recyclable. And, sure, yes, things like that might be true, but there's no one that's gonna recycle it or purchase PVC once it's gone through this curbside stream and, gone in the truck and the facility and all of that, no one wants that material, at least. So in our cases, then no, it's not recyclable. So end markets is a really big piece of this and something you'll hear a lot of recyclers talk about, especially when it comes to trying to figure out what goes on the accepted list and what doesn't.

Chris Bradley 5:40 I think you really bring a great perspective there because it's always we're working with brands, and they're trying to create new packaging, and they start with, well, this is a recyclable material. But, really, it's I think as you've kind of hit on, it really depends on, can somebody make money recycling their packaging at the end of the day? And so when brands design packaging, they often think about recyclability or compostability in theory. But I would, I guess, question in practice, what actually happens once packaging leaves the store? So they are consumer packaged goods. They put it on the store, goes into the consumer's hands. Can you walk us through how compostables, recyclables, and mixed materials move through this kind of real world system that you're involved in? ess, question in practice, what actually happens once packaging leaves the store? So they are consumer packaged goods. They put it on the store, goes into the consumer's hands. Can you walk us through how compostables, recyclables, and mixed materials move through this kind of real world system that you're involved in?

Julia Mangin 6:27 Yeah. I think, you know, let's take it from where you said, which is from the store into a consumer's hand. So after I'm a consumer, I'm done with this packaging. I'm going to discard it in some way. And what happens next actually depends on what they have access to. All of us live in California. We probably have, you know, some of the best systems in the country. And and so, um, this example may not be relevant for everyone, but I think it's what maybe everywhere in the country should aspire to, which is a three bin system. Um, and River College actually pioneered that three bin system, like, many, many years ago. But the system would be, you know, a bin for landfill, a bin for recycling, a bin for composting. And the consumers will discard it into the appropriate bins based on what's accepted. The landfill bin gets picked up, and, generally, all three bins will get picked up and taken to what's called a transfer station. And there, it's basically just facility where the material's taken, gets dumped on the ground, kind of consolidated, and then gets loaded into a bigger truck. And in the case of the landfill material, that gets then sent straight to the landfill. I think a lot of people think what goes in the landfill or black card or gray card or whatever color your card is gets sorted. That does not happen at majority of facilities. In the case of recycling or your that will get taken to a material recovery facility, often referred to as a MRF. And that's a really intricate facility that has conveyors going every direction. Um, you'll have advanced recycling and sorting equipment like optical sorters, AI robotics, in some cases, human sorters as well. We use definitely both. And that's where each of the materials gets sorted into their individual commodities. We bill that material, and then we, Recology, aren't actually a recycler. We sell that to a downstream recycler. So in a way, we're just a processor, we're a sorter of the material. And then for composting, that material gets taken to either a composting facility, maybe an anaerobic digestion facility, and turned into either compost or in the case of anaerobic digestion, renewable energy? r. We sell that to a downstream recycler. So in a way, we're just a processor, we're a sorter of the material. And then for composting, that material gets taken to either a composting facility, maybe an anaerobic digestion facility, and turned into either compost or in the case of anaerobic digestion, renewable energy?

Brodie Vander Dussen 8:57 I think that that's a piece of it that not most consumers are aware of of how, like, you know, I think people throw it away, and it's out of sight, out of mind. And maybe they know, but don't think about that there's somewhere that all of this goes. And there are people who sort it, who pass it along, who process it, and it either gets sent to these recyclers and contribute to the circular economy and so on. But I think that there's often a gap between what a phrase I've heard of wish cycling of things. I want this to be recycled, and I throw in the blue bin, and I hope for the best. I'm curious from your experience, what are some of the biggest gaps that you're seeing in today's recycling and in composting infrastructure? But I think that there's often a gap between what a phrase I've heard of wish cycling of things. I want this to be recycled, and I throw in the blue bin, and I hope for the best. I'm curious from your experience, what are some of the biggest gaps that you're seeing in today's recycling and in composting infrastructure?

Julia Mangin 9:40 Infrastructure is essential. I mean, infrastructure is what makes things possible to be recovered. And so when I think about gaps in infrastructure, it's really where don't we have infrastructure? I think we, again, live in California where there's probably more advanced and mature market for recycling and composting. Other parts of the country, that is not the case. The recycling partnership puts out this report called the state of recycling. Um, and there's a ton of good data in it, and you guys might be familiar with it. But one of the stats that really is something that I I use a lot and surprises people is that 73% of households have access to recycling. So about three quarters of the country, I think that's relatively good. I think it should be a 100, frankly. So it's a little bit of an issue of access. You know, again, that number should be a 100, but, really, it's that 76% of what can be recycled at a residential level isn't even making it into the recycling bin. So you have access, but you're having a gap in either it just you know, people not knowing that it's recyclable, not caring that it's recyclable, not having the proper education. It could be a number of things, but that's a staggering amount of material that it's not an issue of, oh, we're not sorting well enough. And that can be true too, but really, it's we're missing a huge portion of recyclables. Like, they're not even coming to someone like Recology to be recycled across the entire country. So to me, that's a big gap in the recycling system, specifically for blue bin materials. And then I think when we look at composting, it's actually, interestingly, kind of the inverse. So where about 75% of the population has access to recycling, 75% of the population doesn't have access to composting. So composting is underfunded, underutilized, and that's why I certainly get a little frustrated when you travel, you know, maybe to another state and, you know, you're at a stadium where they've got the, you know, possible plastic cups. And then I walk over the bins, and there's no compost bin. And I'm like, who designed this? Who thought this was a good idea? How do they think this is getting compost? They don't compost to begin with, and we can maybe get to that later, but lack of access to any form of composting infrastructure is a gap, especially when, you know, many national packaging companies and brands design products to be composted knowing or maybe not knowing that the majority of the country doesn't have access to composting service.

Brodie Vander Dussen 12:39 It's for sure a really important aspect when it comes to designing packaging, whether that's recyclable or compostable or just straight design is thinking about the end of life for sure. ng or maybe not knowing that the majority of the country doesn't have access to composting service. It's for sure a really important aspect when it comes to designing packaging, whether that's recyclable or compostable or just straight design is thinking about the end of life for sure.

Chris Bradley 12:49 One comment I'd like to make. You know, you mentioned the 76% that have access, and they do have some access, but, uh, the other stat from that same source that I always love to use is that there's 50,000,000 US households that do not have access to curbside recycling. So that's well over a 100 plus million people that are buying products from all of these brands that just have no access at all. And so those products, even though they could be recovered or not.

Julia Mangin 13:20 Because I think that stat, even the 76%, you know, like you said, Chris, it doesn't mean they have curbside. Like, a lot of times, that can mean they have access they're within x number of miles to a recycling depot. Well, I don't know about you, but a lot of Americans rely on convenience. Why we established curbside systems, which is why we went to a single stream recycling system, um, because people aren't gonna sort out all those different material streams, and they're not gonna drive five miles to recycle their materials. Unfortunately, that is at least case for most people. So it's a challenge. I think, you know, sometimes we we get into a bubble in California where it's like, duh, we've had we've recycled for thirty years. How do you not have a recycling bin? And that's just not the case for everyone.

Chris Bradley 14:09 I think some of these multi material or hybrid packaging are often necessary for performance, like barrier or shelf life or something like that, but they're really tough at end of life. Have you seen any effective strategies that help simplify these designs without really sacrificing some of that functionality or brand expression? of these multi material or hybrid packaging are often necessary for performance, like barrier or shelf life or something like that, but they're really tough at end of life. Have you seen any effective strategies that help simplify these designs without really sacrificing some of that functionality or brand expression?

Julia Mangin 14:30 Yeah. The multi material packaging can be really tough. And the best strategies I've really seen are further downstream, you know, where, for example, with cartons, like we've been told that there's the film plastic layer, but the system that the recycler has developed can handle that. And, you know, the plastic will float to the top and they can scrape that off, or you know, I'm making that up a little bit. But the downstream recyclers have figured out systems to be able to manage some of those materials. And, you know, I think the hope is that where that multi material packaging is absolutely necessary, the brands work with downstream recyclers to further develop, like, more facilities like that to really, you know, be clear in what exactly makes up that multimaterial players because I think sometimes it's a mystery. So I guess from the brand or packaging side, it would be to be very clear what is within that packaging, do research on recyclers that can maybe it's working for, and then share that. You know, information sharing is a big thing. We've worked with mills where previously the plastic liner and, like, paper cups was problematic. And now it's not really that much of a problem anymore, you know, because mills are talking to manufacturers, manufacturers are talking to recyclers and processors, and there's just a lot more conversation happening that everyone knows. Like, okay, we've heard from people all up and down the value chain that we can make this work. So I think, to me, that's just a big piece of it is not just sending it out into the market, but doing some research.

Brodie Vander Dussen 16:22 I wanna touch a little bit on that, about the validation and even certifications when it comes to things like recycling and composting. We see how to recycle labels do a really great job of evolving to be as clear as possible to give people as clear instructions on how to recycle something. It's in the name. And even composting have their own set of certifications when it comes to BPI, and I think how to recycle's looking into how to compost. And there's some collaboration there that I'm excited to see more of. In your opinion, how does those certifications in labeling really impact the consumer and end of life of a product interactions? ting have their own set of certifications when it comes to BPI, and I think how to recycle's looking into how to compost. And there's some collaboration there that I'm excited to see more of. In your opinion, how does those certifications in labeling really impact the consumer and end of life of a product interactions?

Julia Mangin 17:04 Labeling is critical, and I appreciate How to Recycle's efforts. And I think there's still work to be done. I think, you know, in California, there were two bills passed to regulate the labeling of recyclability and compostability claims. Because until until now, there's no regulation around it, and and it's kind of contributed to just the Wild West. And particularly with I'm going to shift it a little bit to composting because this is a topic I'm personally very passionate about, you know, from Recology's perspective as well. Compostable certifications like BPI, again, despite maybe good intentions, they're not adequate. They don't take into account real world composting conditions. Um, in fact, they haven't been updated in many years. They conflict with national standards for, like, organic certifications for composters. And so what it's created is this significant challenge, particularly around bioplastics for composters, where something may be labeled certified compostable, but we know in the real world, they don't break down. From what I can remember, like, BPI certification only requires 90% degradation. And the question I have is what happens to the other 10%? So you've just got little bits of microplastics hanging around in the compost. Well, that compost is supposed to be able to be sold to organic farms, you know, to vineyards, and I just find it really problematic that these certifications continue to be pushed, again, without any regulation and without any real input from composters. So, unfortunately, I don't think compostability certifications are where they need to be, but I do think some of their the work being done on recycling, labeling, and certifications is moving in the right direction.

Chris Bradley 19:08 Let's double click on that because that's interesting as it relates to compostability. So do you want to see compostable packaging coming into your compost stream, or is that something and if not, then what do you see as the future for compostable packaging? Doctor. It's the right direction. Let's double click on that because that's interesting as it relates to compostability. So do you want to see compostable packaging coming into your compost stream, or is that something and if not, then what do you see as the future for compostable packaging? Doctor. It's

Julia Mangin 19:24 a great question. It's probably one of the biggest questions that at least in California we're grappling with right now because of SP 54 and AB twelve oh one. And, you know, I think if you asked a true composter, you know, we pioneered curbside food scrap collection thirty years ago. We've been doing it for a long time. And if you ask a true composter, they'll say that packaging adds no value to composting. The purpose of composting is to improve soil health, improve water retention, and that requires the feedstock to have, like, some nutritional value. That's why food scraps are great. You get, you know, yard waste. It's very carbon rich, nitrogen rich material. Compostable packaging doesn't have any of that. I think the reason why composters accept compostable packaging is because it is often a vehicle for collecting food. You know, you get a fiber food tray that has food scraps left over, can throw it all in because we really want that food. And I think most composters I don't wanna speak for all of them, but fiber is not as much of an issue. I think it still needs to be regulated, you know, and make sure there's no PFOS or anything in there. But fiber is is not as problematic. It's bioplastics that people really have concerns about. One, because it's very difficult to distinguish conventional plastic from bioplastic. There's no regulation around labeling. And again, because the bioplastics don't perform. Twenty years ago, our processes were a hundred and twenty days to make compost. Now we're coming up to sixty days and approaching potentially even thirty days to make compost. So packaging is not designed to break down that quickly. It's just not. And the compostability standards don't require it to break down that quickly. I think they require around a hundred and twenty days. So there's just a a big discrepancy in those standards with real world composting conditions. So it's a roundabout way, Chris, of saying, no. We typically don't want compostable packaging, but there's some that we're okay with assuming that it can meet standards for PFAS. It can meet national organic program, um, requirements, which is gonna be a big part of AB 12 o one. s with real world composting conditions. So it's a roundabout way, Chris, of saying, no. We typically don't want compostable packaging, but there's some that we're okay with assuming that it can meet standards for PFAS. It can meet national organic program, um, requirements, which is gonna be a big part of AB 12 o one.

Chris Bradley 21:57 Wow. And I I think I knew the answer there, and it's something that I've been not struggling with, but just trying to figure out how do we get to a better future because it seems like that compostable packaging stream is is an important stream that we need to figure out. So it sounds like for it to work, it would have to fully break down within thirty days. And so maybe some of these fiber solutions that have very thin barrier coatings and things that can meet that standard would fit within that kind of guideline, but some of the traditional industrial compostable materials like PLA and other things are problematic in that stream. Are there any materials that give you hope in this compostable packaging or bioplastic space? very thin barrier coatings and things that can meet that standard would fit within that kind of guideline, but some of the traditional industrial compostable materials like PLA and other things are problematic in that stream. Are there any materials that give you hope in this compostable packaging or bioplastic space?

Julia Mangin 22:44 You know, I know that there's been some development around, like, different types of foams from bio based materials. Like, I live in Santa Cruz. Cruz Foam was founded here. I'm intrigued by it. You know? But I do wanna go back to one question that I actually didn't answer, Chris, which was, what's the future for these materials in the system? And and I don't wanna paint such a grim picture, and so maybe I'll I'll I'll try to sprinkle in some optimism. We are trying to figure that out. I think people understand that shifting completely away from compostables would be a challenge. And I think there's some materials where it's easy to do so, and that should happen. Um, and for the materials that can't, what does that look like? You know, we've been having discussions, you know, with the producer responsibility organization, um, CAA, about what we as composters can do. And, you know, I think folks are gonna try to come up with some kind of solution. Maybe it's like a bifurcated system where composters that are willing to take these materials and maybe are willing to have a longer process, create a separate pile, a separate stream, and allow more time or use specialized equipment to allow these materials to break down. Like, that's a possibility. I don't know exactly what that would look like yet, and I don't know if there are composters out there that would be willing to do that. You know, that is a part of SB 54 where you could receive additional funding to do something like that. And so I imagine there may be someone that steps up and says like, okay, we'll take it. We're gonna institute a hundred and twenty day composting process. We're gonna use specialized equipment to make sure this stuff really breaks down. And then it's a matter of just redirecting all the material to those facilities. I think it's a lot of extra work just to preserve this type of packaging that no one really wants. So from my perspective, I think we need to be figuring out ways to either phase that packaging out or finding alternatives. But there is a definitely a camp of people that are invested in making sure that that packaging remains.

Brodie Vander Dussen 25:15 Julia, thank you so much for joining us today. I think that your perspective on this provides a really critical perspective and a voice to the end of life of packaging and really helps encapsulate what we're talking about when we talk about a circular economy. I think it's so important that when we are designing for packaging, we are considering end of life. So thank you for coming. Thank you for bringing your perspective. This has dragged a lot of ideas for me, and I'm excited to bring it back to the team and seeing what we could do with your insights. So thank you. conomy. I think it's so important that when we are designing for packaging, we are considering end of life. So thank you for coming. Thank you for bringing your perspective. This has dragged a lot of ideas for me, and I'm excited to bring it back to the team and seeing what we could do with your insights. So thank you.

Julia Mangin 25:46 Yeah. No. Thanks for having me. I always appreciate the opportunity to kind of speak to different audiences, and I think brands and packagers is one of them. So always happy to join in the conversation.

Brodie Vander Dussen 26:04 That was such a great conversation. There are so many things that we talked about, so many insights that she gave us that I'm gonna be thinking about as we work on projects here at the lab. One of the things that stood out to me was one of Julia's earlier points about how recovery really depends on the end markets. You know, we can design a package to be compostable and recyclable and all these things with the best intentions. But if there is not a end market for it, if no one wants that material post consumer, it's not going to be recovered. And so, you know, we really have to be thinking about that in the design phase for

Chris Bradley 26:39 sure. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And, you know, I also really loved her perspective on compostables. To me, that totally stood out. Fiber solutions seem like they have a good place, but most of the bioplastics simply weren't breaking down fast enough for these modern composting systems. When she said that the modern compost facilities that they have are now thirty days, and it takes a typical bioplastic a hundred and twenty plus days to break down. I mean, that just was some real clarity to me about how these systems have to be redesigned.

Brodie Vander Dussen 27:15 Absolutely. I think not only that, but to build off of that, what we need in order to be successful is that collaboration piece, where if we are designing something at the beginning of life, the brands are involved, the packaging providers are involved, the designers are involved. But if we don't include the people in the processes at the end of life, like recovery facilities, composters, recyclers, you know, we all need a seat at the table in order to have the impact that we really want.

Chris Bradley 27:44 It's spot on. I guess as I as I think for our listeners probably listening to this podcast right now, one hope that we have from this conversation is that this sparks some questions for you that you can take back to your teams and really question how to design packaging that works not just for consumers, but works for the entire recovery process all the way through. So think about Julia when you're designing your package and knowing what she's gonna have to do with it when it winds up at her facility.

Brodie Vander Dussen 28:16 So if you found this episode interesting, consider giving us a follow, sharing it with a colleague that might find it valuable.

Chris Bradley 28:23 And if you're looking for more information, more resources, you can find us at sustainabledesignlab.com, and we will see you next time. Thanks.