Stephanie 0:02 Today on the Curiosity Current, we are joined by Ed Khan, senior principal of CX Research and Insights at Mutual of America.

Molly 0:11 Ed has spent more than two decades navigating some of the most complex industries from Samsung and Sony in consumer electronics to MetLife and Citi in financial services, where he's helped transform how organizations use research to guide real business decisions.

Stephanie 0:28 Most recently, he's become a strong advocate for empowering insights teams to not just deliver data, but to drive influence, especially when researchers feel that they don't have

Molly 0:38 a seat at the table. Today, we'll unpack how understanding risk and value can turn researchers into strategic drivers, why change requires patience and preparation, and what it really takes to earn influence with senior leadership. Ed, welcome to the show. Welcome.

Ed 0:55 Thanks so much. Thank you for having me.

Stephanie 0:58 We're excited. Well, let's jump in, Ed, and just kinda kick off with a question here. It seems like you've sort of spent your career generating I'm gonna start that over. Okay. Well, Ed, let's just get things kicked off with a question here. You've spent your career generating insights that influence decisions across industries from Samsung and Citi and now Mutual of America. When you hear researchers or insights teams say things like, we don't have a seat at the table, what do you think it is that they're actually missing the most? Is it access, influence, uh, a broader understanding of the business context and risk, or is it a confluence of these things?

Ed 1:43 Well, I'm I'm sure there's some confluence of things, but but I think the the largest one tends to be, um, that deeper understanding of the business, uh, and understanding, um, the the risks or the broader context around the work that they're, uh, that they're doing. So I'm I'm sort of a lucky oddity in a way that I studied, uh, social sciences undergraduate, but then went back and got a business degree. Um, but you don't really need a a master's in business, you know, to get a handle on well, companies sell lots and lots of different products, and they sell a lot more of some than they do of others. Uh, and some products are more profitable than others. Uh, some of them have bigger market opportunities than others. These are some of the things, right, that we understand as researchers and learn about. So, um, but but those are the things, uh, that are really important to start to get into in in order to be really a valued partner.

Stephanie 2:43 So is that's such an interesting answer, and I'm curious if that is information that typically it's like no one will tell us or if it's like it is simply your job to be more steeped in what we're doing as a business and just to be plugged in in a way that sometimes you might not because you get siloed in your in your role. s that's such an interesting answer, and I'm curious if that is information that typically it's like no one will tell us or if it's like it is simply your job to be more steeped in what we're doing as a business and just to be plugged in in a way that sometimes you might not because you get siloed in your in your role.

Ed 3:03 Yeah. It it's so important to ask questions. Okay. Um, we're researchers. This is what we do. Right? If we can figure out what we figure out, we can figure that out. Yeah. Um, and it's, you know, it's, um, I I think about interviewing. Right? Think about, you know, how you sketch out a survey and and how you get started, right, or what are the more general questions to start with if you don't have some of those answers, uh, and and who, right, who are the people that you should be asking? Um, you know, look around. Um, where are your best opportunities? Who who is the most accessible. Right? You may you referenced access. Well, some people are more accessible than others. So, uh, we may wanna start in one place and learn some things and then say, who else do you think I ought to be talking to? And and let them guide you a little bit. Um, but these are these are really important aspects of the role.

Stephanie 4:00 Yeah. Absolutely.

Molly 4:02 And you said, you know, bringing who else do I need to talk to, right, and bringing those executives into your sphere of influence. So researchers can do that when they better understand the risks and the values associated with any business decision. Uh, what does it look like when research teams actively quantify the risk, and does this change the way that executives listen and retain that information? ose executives into your sphere of influence. So researchers can do that when they better understand the risks and the values associated with any business decision. Uh, what does it look like when research teams actively quantify the risk, and does this change the way that executives listen and retain that information?

Ed 4:29 Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're, you know, we're speaking our own language, and and I think it's really important to, uh, appreciate that of course, we're trying to learn the language of the business, and we're trying to speak in in that language. Right? We're trying to speak in terms of the sales or the profit or the business risk. Um, but but it's important for us to recognize, it's hard for people to understand us and understand a lot of the things that we're saying. So so what it looks like really is that you're gonna have, um, you're gonna have a deeper engagement. You know? You we we get requests all the time. Uh, and and I think about, you know, a client when I was on the vendor side, you know, a client reaching out to me and say, you know, we need to explore this category, um, more, and, you know, can you draft me up a proposal to examine, you know, such and such? Uh, and I said, well, oh, okay. But if I'm not mistaken, like, that's not your biggest business. Right? Like, how big is it? What's your market share? What's the size of that market? What kind of money do you make on that product when you sell it? Um, and just doing things on the back of the envelope, what I figured out pretty quickly was it wasn't gonna pay to do that kind of study. I mean, they they would have had to do sales to pay for the cost of the study on on the profit margin that they get. So, you know, so now we're having a different conversation. Do we have a larger strategic initiative going on? You know, what's happening, or is this just some tactical answers because the marketing manager is asking a couple of questions? What's really going on here? Uh, and and if we have something with much more scale to it and we can add value not just within the next twelve months, right, of trying to put product on the shelf, but something much bigger than that and make a significant move in the category and change our position, then there are wonderful opportunities and fat and a fabulous study that we could run. But, otherwise, I'm not sure this is the best thing to do, which is not easy to say, believe me, when you have a sales quota hanging over your head. Right? han that and make a significant move in the category and change our position, then there are wonderful opportunities and fat and a fabulous study that we could run. But, otherwise, I'm not sure this is the best thing to do, which is not easy to say, believe me, when you have a sales quota hanging over your head. Right?

Stephanie 6:42 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was about to ask if you were talking about that from the perspective of being an insights, you know, on an insights team at a brand because it comes up there too. But, I mean, suppliers off also need to be able to have that conversation. I need to be able to say to a customer, you know, to preserve our partnership, to say, I I understand why you might be asking this question, but you're not gonna get actual data out of this. This is probably not what you need in this case. And it's the most, uh, it's very you know, your motives feel, you know, very torn. Right? Because I have a I I want my business to succeed, but I also for the long term relationship, it's my job to be honest with you. Right? I've gotta let you know as your thought partner when I think that you're not gonna get the value you need.

Ed 7:30 And and that's the partnership that that senior leaders are looking for. Right? Those are the people that they want at the table. They want the people who can help them think through, um, the big picture and and where the value is and where the opportunities are and to be able to step back and say, okay. Not, you know, not this one. Right? Here's what we can do. You know? Here's what we can't do. Here's how confident we're gonna feel in terms of the direction that we're gonna be providing. Um, you know, you you you really have to be as transparent as you can about what your capabilities really are.

Molly 8:11 Yeah. And you mentioned language too about researchers speaking our own language, but having the basis of knowledge in that language and then being able to translate it to the strategy. That's super important.

Ed 8:29 For sure. For sure. And so many of the things really are parallel. I mean, we we do quantitative studies, and we talk about key driver analysis. Yeah. Well, you know, what are the key drivers of the business? Right? What's really what's really making things, uh, you know, helping companies to to make money and grow over time? Right? What are the key drivers of that? It's it's a very similar and related question.

Stephanie 8:53 Totally. Yeah. It's a really good point. What about a situation where I think a lot of us have had this experience of uncovering, like, this just really interesting, juicy insight or even just like this really clear picture of consumer preference, but struggle to connect it to real business impacts. In your experience, what transforms an insight like that from interesting to a clear strategic lever? t of us have had this experience of uncovering, like, this just really interesting, juicy insight or even just like this really clear picture of consumer preference, but struggle to connect it to real business impacts. In your experience, what transforms an insight like that from interesting to a clear strategic lever?

Ed 9:22 Oh, it's, uh, that's such a good question. Um, part partly because as researchers, we find so much is interesting. We do. We have a we have a problem. We're super curious people, and and we get so excited about so many things. Um, but but I think, you know, the most important thing, right, is to start with with relevance. Um, and I, you know, I can think of, uh, actually a good example that we had, uh, here at Mutual. We we did some, uh, message testing, very simple, straightforward kind of thing. Um, but we're just gonna run a very simple campaign. And when I say simple campaign, that means we're, you know, we're we're putting up, uh, uh, you know, an an image in front of people, um, you know, like a display, and and we're we're showing the same thing to everybody. Right? There's no question about that. Like, that that part of the execution piece given the timing and the budget and so on is already you know, like, we're past that. So but what are the messages that are going up on that display? Right? And and in doing the study, we did identify that we had a segment of customers, and they're a fairly sizable segment of customers, who responded very differently, um, to to one particular message, and it resonated much more with those folks. So so now we have something, and we kind of have to take a step back and say, you know, for what we're trying to do right now and to get this, you know, get this program out the door, that's not relevant. That right? That's not on the top of the key findings list. That's not helping the decision maker Yeah. You know, move forward right now at this time. However, it occurs, right, to you when you look at that that, gee, what if we didn't? What if we did segment the messages? Could we get more lift out of that display by showing different messages to different audiences?

Molly 11:28 Right.

Ed 11:28 So it's more kind of the back end or the appendix or tomorrow's conversation instead of today's. But but we really have to pull those pieces together and and just kinda try to stay as relevant as we can to be as powerful as we can in the moment, and then also bring the opportunities as we find them.

Stephanie 11:50 Almost sounds like insights prioritization.

Ed 11:53 Right? Yeah. And and you and and sometimes we don't know. Right? So we can't always figure that out by ourselves, in which case, you know, you wanna find some little quarter of your audience that you can preview with and ask the question, hey. What what would you do, right, if it really stood out that this particular portion of our of our customer base felt very differently about that, you know, one of these statements. Right? You don't have to be specific about anything. But what what would happen? What would you do? What do you think? sk the question, hey. What what would you do, right, if it really stood out that this particular portion of our of our customer base felt very differently about that, you know, one of these statements. Right? You don't have to be specific about anything. But what what would happen? What would you do? What do you think?

Molly 12:30 I wanna dig a little bit more into that that part that you said about relevance and driving change. So you recently talked about four questions for driving change at a recent quarks event and I don't wanna spoil your full talk, so I just wanna focus on one. If you had to pick one of those four questions that perhaps researchers consistently fail to answer, which one is it and is there a reason that they avoid that particularly tough question?

Ed 12:57 Well, there's no doubt about what the most important question is. When we're driving change, uh, the most important question is why are we doing this? Why what's right? Why why are we doing it? What is

Molly 13:10 this really about? That's like pulling back even further. Like, why are we here, guys?

Stephanie 13:17 Why are we even here?

Ed 13:19 Why do we wanna change it? Right? Why do we wanna change how we do in market testing? Right? Why do we want to bring facial coding into, right, into a message testing study? Or, you know, why do we want to whatever it is. Uh, could be anything. And, um, and it's you know, when we when we ask ourselves that question, you know, sometimes for researchers, we think of these things as being a little bit self evident, um, but that's to us. It's not to everybody else necessarily. And, uh, and so again, right, it it it it begins to come down this path of, you know, what does that mean in in somebody else's terms? And and I think one of the reasons, uh, that that, you know, people have a difficult time with this is that, um, it's, you know, we're such experts in what we do, um, that we can appreciate when something is gonna work is is is can work better or can deliver more insight, right, and and and deepen the understanding. And sometimes it really matters, and it's really gonna make a difference for the for your client, whoever that is, right, internal or or if you're a vendor. But sometimes it doesn't or sometimes it does, and they just and they and they don't understand that. And you really it it's it takes work to, you know, to walk through that process and explain if we get this answer, but we only understand how well or what's driving it, then then in a sense, we might get the re the right result, but now we're being lucky. And and how long can we count on being lucky? And how much trouble are we gonna get in when our luck runs out? Because I need to really dive in.

Molly 15:27 And being truly intentional about it with a with a master plan. g it, then then in a sense, we might get the re the right result, but now we're being lucky. And and how long can we count on being lucky? And how much trouble are we gonna get in when our luck runs out? Because I need to really dive in. And being truly intentional about it with a with a master plan.

Ed 15:34 Absolutely. And and, again, it's, you know, it's really gotta be collaborative. Right? Because it's it it takes time to learn. There's, you know, there's a lot to there's a lot for us to learn. There's a lot for our clients to learn. Um, and it, uh, and and it takes time, but but I think people really you know, in my experience, people really appreciate that effort in in the partnership.

Stephanie 15:58 For sure. I love that you mentioned, though, that sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't because I think, like, being aware of both sides of those coins is really important. And I I have a little example from Samsung. You and I both had spent a little time there as strategic marketing managers. I realized I love I recognized the title. I was like, that's their research title because I had it too. But, um, I remember once that I had a more senior colleague. I was I was at we were doing a color test for mobile phones. I worked at mobile. And I was like I was I was like, you know, this is only significant at the at 80% confidence. And she looked at me and she goes, Stephanie, they're gonna make the phone in one color or the other. Any evidence that suggests that this color is the better color is better than the coin toss that they were gonna do. And having that, like, understanding of, like, how sometimes the tactical question, you know, good enough is good enough. But then being able to discern between those really strategic initiatives where you do need to have a stronger understanding is is critical. Yeah.

Ed 17:05 That's a great moment. What a great example, really. And so true. Right? So powerful. If you give us any evidence, that that's fabulous.

Stephanie 17:15 Right. It was better than nothing. Exactly. Um, again, to switch gears with you, I I this is a little bit of a contrarian question, I guess. But once you really begin to connect insights to decisions, are there times where it sort of becomes this fine line between advocating for research and overselling its its ability to answer questions? And I wondered, how do you recommend that researchers communicate insights value without overpromising what it can actually deliver and that it's gonna solve everything, for instance?

Ed 17:50 Okay. I'm going to refer to my notes for a moment.

Stephanie 17:53 I love it.

Ed 18:01 Just to make sure. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, it's it's important to recognize you know, sometimes we have to remind ourselves what we do is not perfect. Right. Right? We're sampling. We're testing. Um, you know, we don't get a 100% confidence. We're not a 100% right. And and nothing is in Sure. In business. So it's okay. It's normal. But, you know, but 80% confidence and 50% confidence and 20% confidence, they are different things

Stephanie 18:44 Yes. t perfect. Right. Right? We're sampling. We're testing. Um, you know, we don't get a 100% confidence. We're not a 100% right. And and nothing is in Sure. In business. So it's okay. It's normal. But, you know, but 80% confidence and 50% confidence and 20% confidence, they are different things Yes.

Ed 18:45 That we understand very well, and we really have to communicate as well as we can. We really have to try and be and be transparent about that. Um, I, you know, I had somebody, uh, come to me once, and he said, you know, I'm I'm building out this portfolio of products, and, um, you know, I'm not don't worry about the products. They're gonna be fine. They're gonna be kinda, you know, mid market. You know? I'm not gonna I'm not delivering the best, but that's not relevant. Right? What's important is the portfolio. And I need to know because I'm I'm gonna go, you know, work with my channels and tell people, you know, you have in your channel, right, in this channel, in this way, you sell this product to those people. Uh, and, you know, and I I need those answers. And I said, I I'm sorry. I can't. I I can't help you with that. Yeah. I cannot give you I cannot give you that message, you know, in in a in a confident and reliable enough way that I think you wanna go out and talk to your channels in that way about those things. Here's what I can do. Let right? If if I run this study, here's what I can learn. I can learn some different propensities. I can learn some different propensities from some different demographic groups. I can go you one better. We can run segmentation and that will, no guarantees, but very likely, because it tends to happen this way, I can give you segments that you can talk to people about where those propensities are gonna get, tend to get, you know, sort of a wider spectrum. They're gonna run tend to run higher and tend to run lower because of the segmentation instead of, like, a simple demographic. If if I bring that to you, is that gonna help you? What is what does that do for you instead of going out the way you imagined going out? Like, can that work? Can we get someplace? It's really important.

Stephanie 21:00 It's so collaborative. Yeah.

Ed 21:03 So important not to, uh, you know like, we wanna be confident. But but then but if we're gonna be confident, let's really be confident. Right? Let's be really sure that we've done our homework. We've run down this program a few times before, and, you know, and and we've seen the kind of, you know, lift that somebody gets out of, uh, um, you know, a marketing campaign or whatever it is. And and but if we're gonna be confident, let's really be confident. Right? Let's be really sure that we've done our homework. We've run down this program a few times before, and, you know, and and we've seen the kind of, you know, lift that somebody gets out of, uh, um, you know, a marketing campaign or whatever it is. And and

Stephanie 21:29 But I think you're also it's so powerful what you said about, like, when when you do have to say no. It isn't just a no and a walk away. It's like, here's what I can do, and what is that gonna get for you? Does that is that meeting a need? Is that getting you enough of the way there that it's valuable to you? You know what I mean? And I think sometimes I think that's a really valuable point to make because I think sometimes we can get in our, like, this isn't research or, you know, nope. We're not gonna do this, which is is not helpful for getting a seat at the table. So

Ed 22:01 For sure. For sure. And it's also it's such a wonderful opportunity for us to learn. Right? That's when we start learning about business risk.

Stephanie 22:10 Yeah.

Ed 22:10 Right? Because that's when somebody says, if I go in there and this is what I do, right, because I because I don't know. That's not my job. Right. Right. That's that person's job. So, you know, if you go in there and this is how you say it and this is how you present yourself and and you think you're, you know, for sure you're gonna close, and then I I decide I wanna send you in with something different, how does that change your chance of closing that deal? Right. You know, where are you? What are you you know, how is this really gonna go? What do you think about that? Because because that's the person who can answer that question. Right. Uh, and and, you know, ultimately, we're gonna learn it together, but, um, but that's such a wonderful opportunity.

Stephanie 23:00 Yeah. It really is.

Molly 23:02 And I wanna pivot with you a little bit again and and talk about specifically your role and and consumers and customers and serving them. I feel like there can be instances where even with very in touch businesses, there's a lot of decisions in the ivory tower that's being made, and there's a lot of moving parts, but they don't actually consider the consumer and responding to their needs. So now that you lead CX Insights, which is, you know, first and foremost, a customer first mission

Ed 23:33 Yeah.

Molly 23:33 What makes the work that you do uniquely powerful for earning a seat at the table, especially in organizations where maybe research has been a little bit more of an afterthought or not historically prioritized? ts, which is, you know, first and foremost, a customer first mission

Ed 23:33 Yeah.

Molly 23:33 What makes the work that you do uniquely powerful for earning a seat at the table, especially in organizations where maybe research has been a little bit more of an afterthought or not historically prioritized?

Ed 23:48 So it's, um, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna refer to notes. A time on this one too because, um, but because it's oh, hang on. It's the one before this one. Here it is. Okay. Uh, I got that monitoring. Oh, okay. Uh, here we go. It's you know, in different different organizations have different challenges, but, um, but I but I think what we're what you're getting to is that inevitably, everywhere you go, you run into people who think they know the answer. They believe that they know. They believe that they know how customers are gonna react to something. They believe that they know what customers are thinking and, um, you know, and and whether they're likely to leave you, right, in in in a relationship or or not, right, or what your, you know, what your share of the wallet really is. Um, they think they know. Uh, and but it's not possible to know everything. Yeah. And, um, and and just like we can be wrong, right, with with any particular given study that we do or or a particular question that we're trying to answer, you know, guess what? The reality is those people are facing the same challenge. Uh, and and what if they are wrong or or what if something's changing that they don't know about? Uh, and and the reality is, you know, like, as researchers, we sort of know that that in a measured, more scientific disciplined way, right, in in approaching, you know, knowledge and understanding of our customers, we're we're more likely to miss less and to understand better, uh, right, than somebody who's much more focused on, you know, the the the sales, you know, activity or or, you know, the operations or whatever it is that they're involved in. And, um, and we you know, and I came across this, you know, specifically in this role where somebody said, I've been doing this for twenty years. How far along do you think I'm gonna go?

Molly 26:18 Yeah. Oh. Oh.

Ed 26:20 And I and I said

Stephanie 26:22 Yeah.

Ed 26:23 Right? And I and the answer is, I have no idea how far wrong you could go.

Stephanie 26:28 Right? You've gotta find out. Yeah.

Molly 26:30 Yeah. Humans can always surprise you.

Ed 26:33 Wouldn't wouldn't you like to know just how far wrong you could go?

Stephanie 26:22 Yeah.

Ed 26:23 Right? And I and the answer is, I have no idea how far wrong you could go.

Stephanie 26:28 Right? You've gotta find out. Yeah.

Molly 26:30 Yeah. Humans can always surprise you.

Ed 26:33 Wouldn't wouldn't you like to know just how far wrong you could go?

Stephanie 26:36 Exactly. That's the question. Yeah. Um, I wonder if this is your experience too, but it was so well, I hate to say it like this, but one of the only sort of, uh, you know, things that I enjoyed about the COVID years was that it was the first time that people were not showing up being like, I already know this. Everyone was like, what is going on? And it was so freeing. You know? It was like, let's let's go find out, guys. Let's all do it together and just find out what's going on. Those are rare, like, you know, global events that happen that really create that kind of shake up in the confidence of what's gonna happen in your industry. So I'm I'm a little bit glad that I got to have that one experience. No more. I'm good. But

Molly 27:20 Yeah. That's that's a really cool thing about research is when things are uncertain and people panic and it's a brand new experience, you know, people while other companies are maybe shuttering, unfortunately, or having to cut things, we don't get cut. Right? Like, the the the need for information is always there. And it always it gets heightened in all these kind of crazy times, COVID being a very extreme case.

Stephanie 27:44 Yeah.

Ed 27:45 Yeah. Absolutely. And it and it's and and when people really respond to it, that's you know, it's sort of rewarding for everybody, um, even, you know, even in an uncertain situation. Unfortunately, um, people don't always wanna follow, uh, you know, what the best recommendation is. But, again, then it's, you know, it's partnership. Right? I can't, you know, I can't say, well, you know, listen. I can say that the data doesn't support that, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Stephanie 28:20 But that's you flagging up the risk. Right? That's you Yeah. Yeah. Which is yeah. That's an important part of the process that I think that a lot of researchers like, it's the it's how you finish out what you're doing, right, is to say, you know, this is the here are the, you know, the takeaways. Here's the limitations. Right? This is the limitations of what I know. And I think a lot of times, we don't talk very much about those limitations.

Ed 28:47 Yeah. And I and I think it's important because it's in it's important also for us to look back and to and to see. Right? How reliable was that insight?

Stephanie 28:57 That. Yeah. This is the limitations of what I know. And I think a lot of times, we don't talk very much about those limitations.

Ed 28:47 Yeah. And I and I think it's important because it's in it's important also for us to look back and to and to see. Right? How reliable was that insight?

Stephanie 28:57 That. Yeah.

Ed 28:58 Um, you know, how widespread an issue, you know, did we unearth in the usability test? Um, you know? And and and when we made the change that we made, right, let's look at the metrics. Right? We we did a usability test because we had metrics that indicated we had a problem. There was a hurdle. There was something people were not getting passed. There was something that people struggled with. So now we did our homework. We came up with some good opportunities. We may have even pretested some of those opportunities. It certainly appeared that it would be easier for people to do what they were trying to do, and then we implemented. And now let's go back and look at the and look at the behavioral metrics again, and let's see. How did that go? What did we get out of that? How well did that really work? Um, it's, you know, it's it's really important because, um, because we're the ones that understand that process. And, uh, and and that's an important, you know, dimension that we're bringing to the table. People really count on us for that kind of expertise.

Stephanie 30:05 Yeah. They do. Um, well, we're gonna change topics on you. Oh, sorry. Monosy, is it I mean, Monosy. Good grief. Molly, is it all this will get cut. Don't worry. Do you have any question?

Molly 30:18 Uh, no. I think it's you up next. I just asked the one about CX insights. Yeah. I just thought I heard you talking. Sorry.

Stephanie 30:25 Um, okay.

Molly 30:26 Back on. I'm honored to be called Monacy, though. She's incredible.

Stephanie 30:30 I can't believe I did that. Okay. Um, changing topics a bit again. How can researchers use leverage technology, whether it's AI, automation, even dashboarding for communication, all these things that make our research faster, more scalable, more accessible to our internal stakeholders? So how can they do all that stuff without losing that human nuance and storytelling that tends to be the thing that actually persuades leaders? , whether it's AI, automation, even dashboarding for communication, all these things that make our research faster, more scalable, more accessible to our internal stakeholders? So how can they do all that stuff without losing that human nuance and storytelling that tends to be the thing that actually persuades leaders?

Ed 31:02 It's it's a good question. Right? And it has been a good question for such a long time. There's so many wonderful technologies that have enabled us to do so many more things, right, over the span of at least my career, which I don't wanna think about how long that is. But, um, you know, so many things have emerged and are still emerging and will continue to emerge. And and the challenge is, I think, just always to start to start with the human part. Right? We should never go technology first. It can't be technology for as good as everything that that we've seen and that we do today has become, um, it's still it's still human first. Right? The the context around the business and and what's going on with the people that we're working with, um, day in and day out, that has to drive how we leverage, you know, creating a dashboard and and how the design is gonna work for that and what we expect people to do with it and what we prefer that people don't do with it. Right. You know, we have to have a a really rich understanding around all of that because, you know, let's face it. People can get themselves in trouble, and they have, uh, and they probably always will. Um, but, um, you know, it's funny. Some sometimes I I can recall, you know, people saying, you know, are you are you sure you really wanna deliver, like, you know, a a a software, you know, kind of a thing where somebody can just play with it and plug stuff in and do what they want and get results. And I said, you know, let me think about it this way. Um, somebody could really go hang themselves with that. That is true. Mhmm. Uh, but but I'm gonna do my best to help them understand how to approach that, what's good to do with it, what's not so good to do with it. And by the way, if they go make a mistake and get in trouble, they're not gonna make that mistake twice. From now on, they're gonna come back to the expert. Yeah. They're gonna come back to the expertise, and they're gonna make sure they understand really well. And that's right. This is where the risk comes in in in our roles.

Stephanie 33:30 Yes. And a lot of how you summed that up, um, I think is it aligns so well with this line from the grit report that I cannot stop thinking about today, which is that AI and that could apply I mean, I think it equally applies to automations and other things. AI is not the strategy. It is the infrastructure. And I think if we think about these things as the infrastructure, not the strategy, it just it sets us up to do all those things that you're talking about. Right?

Ed 33:58 Yeah. Really well said, and and I thought that that report did it really well. ther things. AI is not the strategy. It is the infrastructure. And I think if we think about these things as the infrastructure, not the strategy, it just it sets us up to do all those things that you're talking about. Right? Yeah. Really well said, and and I thought that that report did it really well.

Molly 34:04 Yeah. I I think that that pivots nicely into the question that I've been dying to ask because this is just my favorite one. Because I I feel like so many researchers and other professionals have have experienced a situation like this where a decision has been made above our pay grades and now we're just stuck validating an inherently bad idea. Um, and it's something that we we we don't wanna do. We want the the data and the research to be more proactive and not just a defense maneuver to justify something that probably was not wise. Um, so what's for you, what what's one simple process change? Uh, you know, kind of once you've established that that kind of cadence with the executive team, once you have your seat at the table, uh, what's something that an organization can do that doesn't require a whole new insights department to ensure that the data is done a little bit ahead of time and that, you know, you're not just, know, validating something not great just for the sake of, you know, covering our butts.

Ed 35:05 It's so this I mean, it's it's hard. It's really hard. And it and Oh, yeah. For sure. And as a and as a researcher, right, it shakes you down to your bones. You know? You're kind of like, uh, you want me to do what?

Stephanie 35:20 Yeah. It's hard. Yeah.

Ed 35:22 And I and I and I had a client once. It was really interesting, and that was that wasn't a small study. It was a it was it was quite sizable. Um, and I and it was funny. We you know, there was back and forth as we developed the questionnaire and, you know, talked about the approach, and something just felt a little uncomfortable and suspicious to me. And I finally picked up the phone one day, and I called up and I said, is there a correct answer to this? Like, we're we're gonna evaluate, like, three different options. Like, is there a correct answer? Uh, and, you know, he said, yeah. And as a matter of fact, there is. So I said, alright. I said, the first thing is don't tell me what it is.

Stephanie 36:08 K. Alright. Yeah. aid, is there a correct answer to this? Like, we're we're gonna evaluate, like, three different options. Like, is there a correct answer? Uh, and, you know, he said, yeah. And as a matter of fact, there is. So I said, alright. I said, the first thing is don't tell me what it is. K. Alright. Yeah.

Ed 36:09 But I but I wanna be aware of this. And so it's interesting when when you talk about the process change. Right? What what can we well, there's only so much we can do. So we try to get in front of things. Um, we try to keep in touch with with our clients. Right? We we try to, you know, connect, to learn, to understand what's going on, to keep up, and to and to be in front of the decisions that are gonna get made in the future. Um, but it's gonna happen. It and it it will happen, uh, and and there's only so much you can do to stop it. But, um, but the way that that I think about this is, um, well, okay. So there's a process that for whatever reason, at whatever particular moment in time, uh, I wasn't able to to fix or to change that process. But now what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna change my own process. Yep. I'm gonna relook at what is it that I'm doing, right, and what can I do? How can I still be helpful? How can I generate value from doing that work? And and how can I deliver right? How can I provide, you know, helpful, valuable insights that that very likely suggest to those people that they really did go down? Right? They're really in the wrong place on this one. Right. Um, but to but to give them, you know, the knowledge that helps them understand that, um, and and and and and maybe just helps them do the best that they can with the choice that they've already made.

Stephanie 37:55 Yeah.

Ed 37:55 Right? Let's make the most of it. We're Right. We're going down that path.

Stephanie 38:00 Eyes wide open into the risks. Right?

Molly 38:03 Yeah. Yeah. And there's probably a lot of financial investment, intellectual investment into a lot of these things. Like, let's figure out what we can do with those guardrails that we know are already around us.

Ed 38:15 Absolutely.

Stephanie 38:17 We haven't talked too much about, uh, something that I I always am am fascinated about because my partner also works in the financial services industry. What I know about it more than anything is that it's an extremely complex regulatory environment, uh, that really does require this deep understanding of risk and regulation and long term value in a way that I think, like, if you were in an insights position at a CPG company, you might be less inclined to, uh, be exposed to just by virtue of it being an industry that is less regulated than financial services. So it tends to make me think that that you guys might be a little head up ahead on this stuff. And I wondered, is there anything that this industry has taught you about influencing decision makers that other verticals could learn from?

Ed 39:05 Well, I I hope did did you say that that as an industry, we'd be ahead of something? ake me think that that you guys might be a little head up ahead on this stuff. And I wondered, is there anything that this industry has taught you about influencing decision makers that other verticals could learn from? Well, I I hope did did you say that that as an industry, we'd be ahead of something?

Stephanie 39:10 Well, because you're so attuned to, like, regulation and risk in a way that you don't have to be as much in other industries. Yeah.

Ed 39:19 So, um, well, let let's start with this. I hope that we're not ahead in that way, uh, that everybody else is ahead of us and won't have to deal with everything that we have to deal with. Um, but it's, um, what, you know, what what it does teach you is just how big the big picture can be.

Stephanie 39:39 Yeah.

Ed 39:40 Uh, and and that's you know, I mean, sometimes it's astounding. Uh, and, you know, and you and you realize, oh my goodness gracious. You know? It's not you know? I I I wanna, you know, set up an interview with a client. We're gonna talk about x, y, and z, and then the compliance person, you know, says, well, what if they say this? What are you gonna do? I'm like, I don't know. What do you want me to do? But I didn't know there was an issue there, right Right. Until, you know, on on until until I asked. Um, and and you don't necessarily know who to ask. So, you know, so one one of the things that I think, you know, honestly, it's really valuable for, um, as, you know, as an experience in in your career, in my career, is, uh, it's really just open to my my eyes to, uh, the the downstream impact that can exist on anything that you study and anything that you deliver. Um, you produce a report and you do it for a purpose and you do it at a particular time, but what you don't know is that somebody may go look at that later on. And there may be other downstream activities that are happening somewhere, you know, in the communications team that, you know, that the marketing department decided to share with PR that you don't know about. Right? Right. And, um, and, you know, my goodness, what could happen then? Um, because we weren't thinking about that. We weren't speaking to them necessarily. Right. And we don't know. Right? And now we're in a whole other world, in a whole other language, and do they understand what it was that we said? Yeah. Um, so you you really, uh, you you gain a tremendous amount of sensitivity to, um, you know, to just just how much influence you might really have. You might not even realize Right. Yeah. How much influence you really have. And and I think that's a, you know, I think that's a a a real factor for a lot of research. I think people, uh, in our industry, a lot of them don't appreciate how much influence they really do have. st how much influence you might really have. You might not even realize Right. Yeah. How much influence you really have. And and I think that's a, you know, I think that's a a a real factor for a lot of research. I think people, uh, in our industry, a lot of them don't appreciate how much influence they really do have.

Molly 41:59 That's fascinating. Yeah. I I love that. All of our researchers listening right now should absolutely take a confidence boost from that because you're you are totally right. You have no idea how many places that report is being shared, how many departments are saying, hey. Take a look at this. Just factor some of this. Factor this section into your decision making, into your everyday work. This is what's happening next for us. Um, I I I that's gonna stick with me for a while.

Ed 42:26 Yeah. Yeah. And it's wonderful when you find out. Right? It's wonderful when somebody, you know, comes to you and says, hey. I saw, you know, or I heard you said, you know, um, that's fabulous, but nine out of 10 times, it doesn't happen.

Stephanie 42:45 Well, Ed, let's, uh, take you through one of our recurring segments, if you're good with that, uh, today. Okay. So question is it's a two parter. In your experience, what is one trend or practice and insights or market research that you would like to see stop? And what's one thing you would love to see more of?

Ed 43:08 Oh, wow. What a what a great question. And so I I'm gonna say it's in in a way, it's the same thing. What I would love to see, uh, more of is is people looking at the data that they have available. Um, let's let's really be mindful of just how much we know or we can know that it's available to us. And if we can use that to take a single question off a single survey, it's good because that's that's the part I'd like to see stop. What I'd like to see stop is sort of the default of, well, let's just ask that question. Well, let's just go ahead and have a survey here. Um, I think there there's so many, um, so many opportunities. There's so much information. There's been such a tremendous explosion. Uh, and then, of course, there are studies, you know, that we don't run. Right? There are industry studies going on that we may be able to borrow from. Yep. That may save us a little bit of effort or if nothing else, you know, again, that just save us a couple of questions out of the survey that that we're already running. Um, but anything and everything that we do because surveys are work. Um, research has work. Right? It's work on our part, uh, but it's work on the part of our customers. And and and so and I'm all about that value exchange. Right? I believe a thousand percent people really get things out of participating, uh, in a variety of ways, and that's extremely important. But any teeny tiny little thing that we do to lighten that load improves the the the balance. Right?

Stephanie 45:03 Yeah.

Molly 45:04 And also improves the the survey taker's experience also.

Ed 45:10 Absolutely. They they don't

Molly 45:11 wanna answer the same billion questions a billion times. y teeny tiny little thing that we do to lighten that load improves the the the balance. Right?

Stephanie 45:03 Yeah.

Molly 45:04 And also improves the the survey taker's experience also.

Ed 45:10 Absolutely. They they don't

Molly 45:11 wanna answer the same billion questions a billion times.

Ed 45:14 And that's an experience sensitivity that we get. So it's so it's interesting, you know, coming back to something that you had inquired about, um, before, right, in in terms of, you know, helping the organization to grow. Um, as as we work through the process, as we, you know, build out, uh, uh-uh an infrastructure of, you know, capturing customer information at at different touch points and in relationship surveys, um, we you know, I have that conversation. You know? I key I challenge, like, you know, I challenge the questions and say, you know, are you sure? Like, what what if we get a terrible rating? Then what? What if we get a great rating? Then what? And I wanna be really, really sure that you guys have every intention and every capability. Like, you may have the best of intentions, but no capability.

Stephanie 46:07 Right.

Ed 46:07 If we can't do something

Stephanie 46:10 Action on it. Yeah.

Ed 46:11 Let it go. If you cannot take action, let it go. Today, let it go. If we can come back and and and do this differently because we're in a different place next year, that's awesome. We'll do that. I just wanna get it out right now and, you know, and just keep this as clean and sharp and as powerful and valuable as we can because that's better it's better for the customer, and, truly, you're gonna get a better result in in in the survey effort because it's cleaner and because you're telling people you're really communicating to them what you need help with. Yeah. What is it that they that you want them to help you with because they're taking it. They are telling you they want to help you. So let's let's make it as easy as possible, uh, and you'll get the best result, and they'll get the best result, and we're all gonna feel good.

Molly 47:08 But, I mean, it's also tempting to say, well, I just wanna know. Like, I'm just curious. I just I wanna know about this. But you're totally right. If you can't do something about it, what's the point of knowing it?

Ed 47:19 Yeah.

Molly 47:20 At that at that moment in time at that moment in time.

Ed 47:23 At that moment in time. And we, you know, we have to think long term. Like, okay. Well, let's you know, how you know, again, in in terms of, um, you know, the the the business, right, and the and your key drivers, you know, how important do we think that dimension might really be?

Stephanie 47:40 Right.

Ed 47:41 Maybe if we have a conversation about it, maybe we're really underestimating just how important how important it could be. Mhmm. And maybe we really ought to check just to be sure. Or, right, maybe maybe we're we're pretty darn sure, and and let's just try to sort out some other issues first, uh, and and keep things simpler. And then and then we'll come back and we'll explore that later. mating just how important how important it could be. Mhmm. And maybe we really ought to check just to be sure. Or, right, maybe maybe we're we're pretty darn sure, and and let's just try to sort out some other issues first, uh, and and keep things simpler. And then and then we'll come back and we'll explore that later.

Stephanie 48:06 Yeah.

Molly 48:09 And that's a super important takeaway that I feel like can be a whole other topic, but I know that we're we're getting close to time here. And so thank you so much, Ed, for all these wonderful insights. Um, to wrap us up, uh, we've kind of all been distilling down to I feel this this one question because I think it's really important for our audience out there to have an actionable takeaway that they can implement and work on in their careers and in their industry, um, and in their, uh, in their companies. So what what could they do right now to move from the outside to that inside circle of influence? How can they work on those partnerships more deliberately, um, with their clients? Um, what's a high high impact action that they can take in, let's say, the next thirty days to help them move towards earning that seat? And we know, you know, based on our what we were just talking about, it's not by delivering more data. Um, it's not by, you know, providing more spreadsheets and more dashboards. I don't think anybody needs more of those. Um, but it's by demonstrating value. Right? So so what's what's, like, a big value add that that researchers can take to the table?

Ed 49:16 Go have coffee. And and that's gonna sound really silly.

Stephanie 49:21 Say more.

Molly 49:22 Yeah. I was gonna say don't don't leave it there.

Ed 49:28 And, um, or tea or a or a soft drink if you like. Right? But it's all good. Um, but reach out. Uh, reach out to to to someone in in your organization, uh, and you can start anywhere. And I will say don't start too high. Right? Okay. So I, you know, so, yes, I went and had coffee with the CFO, but that meeting got rescheduled, like, 50 times before we actually sat down and had a conversation. So don't start there. Right? Start, you know, someplace that's that's a little bit easier. Um, but but really just, you know, just grab a couple of minutes with someone and say, hey. I I'm I am not that familiar with, you know, with your role and what you do and and how that, you know, and how that fits into the business. Uh, and I would really like to understand that better. And and it's an opportunity, uh, for you to learn, right, to ask questions

Stephanie 50:30 Yeah. omeone and say, hey. I I'm I am not that familiar with, you know, with your role and what you do and and how that, you know, and how that fits into the business. Uh, and I would really like to understand that better. And and it's an opportunity, uh, for you to learn, right, to ask questions Yeah.

Ed 50:30 To improve, um, the value that you're gonna bring to the table. It's also a wonderful opportunity for that person to, you know, to kinda promote and to talk about just how interesting and how exciting and how valuable, um, what they're doing really is, uh, and and for you to get some appreciation about that. Um, but it but it's going to help you. It's going to help you understand the bigger picture, uh, and and poke around. You know? Go go anywhere. Um, don't, you know, don't don't be shy about it. Um, people are are remarkably willing to do that. Uh, and and when it comes to access, I know, you know, I hear people say, well, it's you know, I I feel like I don't you know, I I can't get somebody's ear for something. Um, so, well, you know, what if what if you traded a a cup of coffee for that ear for, you know, for ten, fifteen minutes? Like, does that help? You know? Did you try that? Um, because, uh, because it can help. You never know. Uh, and it's worth a shot, but I think, really, if you come to the table and you say, I'm you know? And and this is what we do. Right? It's it's not like this isn't fun. We're learning stuff. We're studying. We're doing research. This is what we do, and we're really good at it. We know how. We know how to formulate great questions, right, that are gonna that are gonna bring things, uh, to the fore and help people express themselves and and, you know, uh, and talk about, you know, value and value to the business, uh, and the bigger context. So, um, that's, I I think that's really the best thing that people can can do is, um, is go go connect with your colleagues in in any way that you can, but that's a really good one. It works for me. Yeah. And, uh, and and I've I've gotten a tremendous amount of value for that. And, uh, and and from this experience, thank you so much for inviting me. This has been a great time.

Molly 52:38 Coming on. Thanks for coming on. Yeah. And and that was a surprising answer. I don't know if I was entirely expecting because it's so basic in some ways, but also really nuanced in other ways. It's taking that researcher curiosity because it's a curiosity about humanity. Uh, you know, that that's what really this profession comes down to, and it's changing it to just be about the people that you might take for granted around you. So I love that to close us off. Thank you so much for that.

Ed 53:08 We have to be who we are. It's what we do, and we're good at it. We really are. Like, pat yourself on the back. You're a researcher. You're a professional. You're good at it, and people and and when you go out and have that conversation, people will recognize that. You will build trust, and you will grow invitations to to to come and to sit and to participate and to get engaged and involved. are. Like, pat yourself on the back. You're a researcher. You're a professional. You're good at it, and people and and when you go out and have that conversation, people will recognize that. You will build trust, and you will grow invitations to to to come and to sit and to participate and to get engaged and involved.

Molly 53:34 Ed, have you considered, like, starting your own podcast or talk series about just, like, raising spirits and and, like, being a personal coach? Because you should absolutely do that if this research thing doesn't work out for you.

Ed 53:48 Well, the the research part is going okay, so I don't wanna mess with that. But, but, uh, I I haven't, but, uh, I'll I'll make a note about that.

Molly 53:59 Yeah. Absolutely. We'll talk. We'll talk.

Ed 54:03 That over a little bit.

Molly 54:05 No wonder. Well, thank you again, Ed, so much for your time and for joining us on the show today. It's been a really wonderful conversation.

Ed 54:13 Thank you. Wonderful meeting you, and I appreciate the time. Good luck.

Stephanie 54:17 You too.