Stephanie 0:02 Today on the Curiosity Current, we are joined by Don DeVoe, professor of practice and the masters of science in marketing research program at Michigan State University. Don has spent over a decade shaping the future of market research professionals and recently received the student engagement excellence award for his outstanding mentorship and contribution to the next generation of insights leaders.

Matt 0:25 Before his academic career, Don had a thirteen year tenure at GfK, now part of Nielsen, where he held senior global leadership roles in training and career development. I actually had the pleasure of working on Don's team, uh, on the GfK Automotive team back in Detroit for a couple of years. Today, Don will share how his industry expertise and academic approach are helping to mold the future of market research talent. Don, it's great to have you with us today.

Stephanie 0:54 Yeah. Welcome.

Don 0:55 Great to be here, Gus.

Matt 0:58 So, uh, I was just gonna jump right in. Uh, you know, you've had such a diverse career. Mentioned global leadership at GfK, uh, client side at General Motors for a number of years, now teaching at Michigan State. Can you give us a quick snapshot of your journey and how you ended up sort of transitioning from industry to academia?

Stephanie 0:02 Today on the Curiosity Current, we are joined by Don DeVoe, professor of practice and the masters of science in marketing research program at Michigan State University. Don has spent over a decade shaping the future of market research professionals and recently received the student engagement excellence award for his outstanding mentorship and contribution to the next generation of insights leaders.

Matt 0:25 Before his academic career, Don had a thirteen year tenure at GfK, now part of Nielsen, where he held senior global leadership roles in training and career development. I actually had the pleasure of working on Don's team, uh, on the GfK Automotive team back in Detroit for a couple of years. Today, Don will share how his industry expertise and academic approach are helping to mold the future of market research talent. Don, it's great to have you with us today.

Stephanie 0:54 Yeah. Welcome.

Don 0:55 Great to be here, Gus.

Matt 0:58 So, uh, I was just gonna jump right in. Uh, you know, you've had such a diverse career. Mentioned global leadership at GfK, uh, client side at General Motors for a number of years, now teaching at Michigan State. Can you give us a quick snapshot of your journey and how you ended up sort of transitioning from industry to academia? as just gonna jump right in. Uh, you know, you've had such a diverse career. Mentioned global leadership at GfK, uh, client side at General Motors for a number of years, now teaching at Michigan State. Can you give us a quick snapshot of your journey and how you ended up sort of transitioning from industry to academia?

Don 1:21 Uh, so I I do get asked that question a lot, um, especially for people who are maybe reaching that age when they're going to be they can see the end end game of their of their journey. Um, you know, I think a lot of people's careers, and and mine was one, is sort of like happy accidents along the way. So you're talking to a guy who got an industrial engineering degree and realized about one month in that he didn't want to be in industrial engineering in industry. So I that's where I quickly said, maybe getting an MBA would be a good idea. So I already knew I wanted to pivot out of that, but I'm glad I got manufacturing experience at the beginning because that helped at a company like General Motors to get some closeness to, you know, how the products are built, but I knew I wanted to be on the other side with customers. So, yeah, I switched, uh, over to get my my MBA, and then from there, came back to General Motors and and had an opportunity to work in a number of different roles like marketing and brand management and sales forecasting and such, and that's what introduced me to marketing research. Uh, I used to work at the GM Building in Downtown Detroit, and we were on the Ninth Floor is where the analysts a lot of MBA types who were doing these forecasts for new product programs that were going in all the financial calculations, and we needed data. So on the Sixth Floor was the marketing research group. And so we had spent a lot of time down there because they had all the information that we needed to be able to do our jobs. And I kept thinking, like, this is fascinating. Like, you guys have a lot of fun. You go out and get this data. You get to talk to customers all the time. So that's how I sort of got exposed to marketing research. And then after almost, I guess, twenty years at at GM, when I was saying, you know, I can see what I'll be doing here for another twenty, or I can look for something else. Uh, I had a friend at a small research agency that had left GM, and she recruited me over. And that's that's how I got into that side. And, uh, to be honest, like a lot of people, the the whole idea of leaving a big company and going to one that was much smaller, uh, was very, very scary. But then we got acquired by, you know, a couple very large research firms, so I felt back in my large company space again pretty quickly. Um, so yeah. And, I mean, it was quite a shift, um, but it gave it give it gave me great perspective on seeing both sides of both what it's like to be on the client side as a consumer research and then moving over to the agency side to see how we interact with a number of clients.

Matt 3:58 Right. There was, um, it it was Allison Fisher. Right?

Don 4:02 It was Allison Fisher. Yeah. as just gonna jump right in. Uh, you know, you've had such a diverse career. Mentioned global leadership at GfK, uh, client side at General Motors for a number of years, now teaching at Michigan State. Can you give us a quick snapshot of your journey and how you ended up sort of transitioning from industry to academia? Uh, so I I do get asked that question a lot, um, especially for people who are maybe reaching that age when they're going to be they can see the end end game of their of their journey. Um, you know, I think a lot of people's careers, and and mine was one, is sort of like happy accidents along the way. So you're talking to a guy who got an industrial engineering degree and realized about one month in that he didn't want to be in industrial engineering in industry. So I that's where I quickly said, maybe getting an MBA would be a good idea. So I already knew I wanted to pivot out of that, but I'm glad I got manufacturing experience at the beginning because that helped at a company like General Motors to get some closeness to, you know, how the products are built, but I knew I wanted to be on the other side with customers. So, yeah, I switched, uh, over to get my my MBA, and then from there, came back to General Motors and and had an opportunity to work in a number of different roles like marketing and brand management and sales forecasting and such, and that's what introduced me to marketing research. Uh, I used to work at the GM Building in Downtown Detroit, and we were on the Ninth Floor is where the analysts a lot of MBA types who were doing these forecasts for new product programs that were going in all the financial calculations, and we needed data. So on the Sixth Floor was the marketing research group. And so we had spent a lot of time down there because they had all the information that we needed to be able to do our jobs. And I kept thinking, like, this is fascinating. Like, you guys have a lot of fun. You go out and get this data. You get to talk to customers all the time. So that's how I sort of got exposed to marketing research. And then after almost, I guess, twenty years at at GM, when I was saying, you know, I can see what I'll be doing here for another twenty, or I can look for something else. Uh, I had a friend at a small research agency that had left GM, and she recruited me over. And that's that's how I got into that side. And, uh, to be honest, like a lot of people, the the whole idea of leaving a big company and going to one that was much smaller, uh, was very, very scary. But then we got acquired by, you know, a couple very large research firms, so I felt back in my large company space again pretty quickly. Um, so yeah. And, I mean, it was quite a shift, um, but it gave it give it gave me great perspective on seeing both sides of both what it's like to be on the client side as a consumer research and then moving over to the agency side to see how we interact with a number of clients.

Matt 3:58 Right. There was, um, it it was Allison Fisher. Right?

Don 4:02 It was Allison Fisher. Yeah. me great perspective on seeing both sides of both what it's like to be on the client side as a consumer research and then moving over to the agency side to see how we interact with a number of clients.

Matt 3:58 Right. There was, um, it it was Allison Fisher. Right?

Don 4:02 It was Allison Fisher. Yeah.

Matt 4:03 So this this was like like, uh, classic sorta like, um, brand health management, um, funnel metrics. So then that's what was, uh, as as you say, acquired by GfK, and you suddenly found yourself, like, part of the the the market research industry at large. Right.

Don 4:23 So we were a very small company, uh, less than 30 people, um, and pretty much in The US. And there was an opportunity because there was a lot of consolidation at that time. Um, as actually NOP out of The UK that bought us.

Matt 4:38 Oh.

Don 4:38 And then they were a media company. They're like, we don't know what to do with research. So they sold us a year later to JFK, which actually turned out to be the best thing because we got global expansion and access to new clients, and they got a foothold in The US. Um, so it turned out to be a a really nice runway.

Matt 4:58 So so, ostensibly, you had this run with GfK and then, ostensibly, you you were you were retired. Um, but then this whole other thing started up, and you you found yourself kinda moving in, uh, in this direction with with education and academia in Michigan State. What made you decide to kinda keep going with that new that new version, that new direction?

Don 5:21 Well, I mean so I kind of again locked into it. Um, my daughter was attending Michigan State, and it was actually the the person I told you recruited me over to Allison Fisher, uh, was our CEO a COO. And she got contacted by the advisory board, Matt O'Meara. Everyone knows Matt O'Meara. And he was recruiting new, you know, board members, said GK should be on it. And she reached out and said, your kid goes to state. Why don't you do this? Sure. Um, so I joined the advisory board and, you know, hired interns like you and, uh, you know, started a great relationship, and I liked, you know, being involved with this degree and meeting the students and hiring them and having input into, you know, the kind of, um, skills that are needed in the industry and all that sort of thing. And so, yeah, I was part of that and for five, six years. And then when I, uh, you know, saw that I was going to retire, I remember mentioning to the the head of the program at the time, Rich Sprang, and and said I'm gonna retire. And I said, can I can I stay on on the board? He goes, no. And I'm gonna go. Oh my god. Oh, okay. He goes, so because you have to be working. But he then asked me. He said, you know, would you like to teach? And I said, I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. Long story short, two weeks after I retired, I was in a classroom making it up as I went along with my first

Matt 6:53 with my first

Don 6:54 group of students. So yeah. And that I've just been doing ever since then. And I am retired, and I do this for fun, but, um, um, it's nothing like quirky. It is so rewarding and enjoyable. me great perspective on seeing both sides of both what it's like to be on the client side as a consumer research and then moving over to the agency side to see how we interact with a number of clients.

Matt 3:58 Right. There was, um, it it was Allison Fisher. Right?

Don 4:02 It was Allison Fisher. Yeah.

Matt 4:03 So this this was like like, uh, classic sorta like, um, brand health management, um, funnel metrics. So then that's what was, uh, as as you say, acquired by GfK, and you suddenly found yourself, like, part of the the the market research industry at large. Right.

Don 4:23 So we were a very small company, uh, less than 30 people, um, and pretty much in The US. And there was an opportunity because there was a lot of consolidation at that time. Um, as actually NOP out of The UK that bought us.

Matt 4:38 Oh.

Don 4:38 And then they were a media company. They're like, we don't know what to do with research. So they sold us a year later to JFK, which actually turned out to be the best thing because we got global expansion and access to new clients, and they got a foothold in The US. Um, so it turned out to be a a really nice runway.

Matt 4:58 So so, ostensibly, you had this run with GfK and then, ostensibly, you you were you were retired. Um, but then this whole other thing started up, and you you found yourself kinda moving in, uh, in this direction with with education and academia in Michigan State. What made you decide to kinda keep going with that new that new version, that new direction?

Don 5:21 Well, I mean so I kind of again locked into it. Um, my daughter was attending Michigan State, and it was actually the the person I told you recruited me over to Allison Fisher, uh, was our CEO a COO. And she got contacted by the advisory board, Matt O'Meara. Everyone knows Matt O'Meara. And he was recruiting new, you know, board members, said GK should be on it. And she reached out and said, your kid goes to state. Why don't you do this? Sure. Um, so I joined the advisory board and, you know, hired interns like you and, uh, you know, started a great relationship, and I liked, you know, being involved with this degree and meeting the students and hiring them and having input into, you know, the kind of, um, skills that are needed in the industry and all that sort of thing. And so, yeah, I was part of that and for five, six years. And then when I, uh, you know, saw that I was going to retire, I remember mentioning to the the head of the program at the time, Rich Sprang, and and said I'm gonna retire. And I said, can I can I stay on on the board? He goes, no. And I'm gonna go. Oh my god. Oh, okay. He goes, so because you have to be working. But he then asked me. He said, you know, would you like to teach? And I said, I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. Long story short, two weeks after I retired, I was in a classroom making it up as I went along with my first

Matt 6:53 with my first

Don 6:54 group of students. So yeah. And that I've just been doing ever since then. And I am retired, and I do this for fun, but, um, um, it's nothing like quirky. It is so rewarding and enjoyable. s after I retired, I was in a classroom making it up as I went along with my first

Matt 6:53 with my first

Don 6:54 group of students. So yeah. And that I've just been doing ever since then. And I am retired, and I do this for fun, but, um, um, it's nothing like quirky. It is so rewarding and enjoyable.

Stephanie 7:07 Well, let's talk about that a little bit because, like you said, you have been a professor in the in the MSMR program at Michigan State for for several years now. And what is the most rewarding part about getting to work with the next generation of market researchers?

Don 7:21 I mean, honestly, it's something I enjoyed in my career about GM and GfK was having conversations with my staff about what they wanted to do and how we could get them there. Um, so that's just something that I gravitated toward anyway. That's probably how I end up working in HR at the end of my career. They recruited me over. Um, but I I think the the most rewarding thing is, honestly, I don't know if you can see behind me, but I I do have some cards and things up there, um, from students that have written about the experience they gained from some of our courses, uh, capstone or group project course, or just being in the program and how it's you know, that experience has helped them get their job or prepared them for that. And that, to me, is the reason why I enjoy doing it. Just seeing the growth from that first day at orientation all the way through to, you know and it's funny now. I mean, I I have reunions. I just had a barbecue over them a couple weeks ago for the current students, invited some, uh, alums in the area. And when I see the students who are a year or two, three out, they are not the fresh faced kids, I can say, because

Matt 8:33 they're

Don 8:33 dad, right, that were in the classroom. They are seasoned professionals. They know what they're doing. They are it is just so funny to think back about, you know, when they were maybe struggling through something on a class assignment as a student and now seeing it's so rewarding to see how they've how they've grown. So that's to me, that part, is, uh, is the best part.

Stephanie 8:57 Makes a lot of sense.

Matt 8:58 It's and I know a lot of the a lot of what we wanna ask you about today is, like, what is it about those first three, four years that really make it, um, such a a formative transformative experience for students? I'm curious, you know, just jumping right in to one of our meatier topics though. Yeah. Just jumping it right into one of our meatier topics. There has to have been just a monumental change in the way we teach market research, I'll say today, compared to when, you know, like, I myself went through the program back in 02/2011. Um, you know, and I'm not even talking about AI yet. But I'm wondering if you could just give us, like, the high level view on, you know, over the last decade, ten, fifteen years, what has that shift what has that evolution looked like at a high level? I have to imagine it's been tremendous, but I don't know how to map it. s after I retired, I was in a classroom making it up as I went along with my first with my first

Don 6:54 group of students. So yeah. And that I've just been doing ever since then. And I am retired, and I do this for fun, but, um, um, it's nothing like quirky. It is so rewarding and enjoyable.

Stephanie 7:07 Well, let's talk about that a little bit because, like you said, you have been a professor in the in the MSMR program at Michigan State for for several years now. And what is the most rewarding part about getting to work with the next generation of market researchers?

Don 7:21 I mean, honestly, it's something I enjoyed in my career about GM and GfK was having conversations with my staff about what they wanted to do and how we could get them there. Um, so that's just something that I gravitated toward anyway. That's probably how I end up working in HR at the end of my career. They recruited me over. Um, but I I think the the most rewarding thing is, honestly, I don't know if you can see behind me, but I I do have some cards and things up there, um, from students that have written about the experience they gained from some of our courses, uh, capstone or group project course, or just being in the program and how it's you know, that experience has helped them get their job or prepared them for that. And that, to me, is the reason why I enjoy doing it. Just seeing the growth from that first day at orientation all the way through to, you know and it's funny now. I mean, I I have reunions. I just had a barbecue over them a couple weeks ago for the current students, invited some, uh, alums in the area. And when I see the students who are a year or two, three out, they are not the fresh faced kids, I can say, because

Matt 8:33 they're

Don 8:33 dad, right, that were in the classroom. They are seasoned professionals. They know what they're doing. They are it is just so funny to think back about, you know, when they were maybe struggling through something on a class assignment as a student and now seeing it's so rewarding to see how they've how they've grown. So that's to me, that part, is, uh, is the best part.

Stephanie 8:57 Makes a lot of sense.

Matt 8:58 It's and I know a lot of the a lot of what we wanna ask you about today is, like, what is it about those first three, four years that really make it, um, such a a formative transformative experience for students? I'm curious, you know, just jumping right in to one of our meatier topics though. Yeah. Just jumping it right into one of our meatier topics. There has to have been just a monumental change in the way we teach market research, I'll say today, compared to when, you know, like, I myself went through the program back in 02/2011. Um, you know, and I'm not even talking about AI yet. But I'm wondering if you could just give us, like, the high level view on, you know, over the last decade, ten, fifteen years, what has that shift what has that evolution looked like at a high level? I have to imagine it's been tremendous, but I don't know how to map it. you know, and I'm not even talking about AI yet. But I'm wondering if you could just give us, like, the high level view on, you know, over the last decade, ten, fifteen years, what has that shift what has that evolution looked like at a high level? I have to imagine it's been tremendous, but I don't know how to map it.

Don 10:05 So, actually, it's funny you mentioned a map because that's exactly how I think we've done it. So I wanna give shout out and credit to somebody you guys know, Michael Brereton, who has been at the forefront of the relationship and started the relationship with AYTO and and our program. But, um, Michael's been instrumental of working through the curriculum and looking at it from the from the lens of an industry professional and saying, how do we prepare future talent? Right? What what skills and and kind of chunks of experience do they need to have to be successful. So we did do a big curriculum. We do about three years ago, and it was more just making sure that we could fit in other content. But even before that, we were always listening to our board members and our alums and and then when we knew in the industry, it was saying, what are we missing? You know? What do we need to do more of? You know? The the the classic, you know, um, green, you know, keep doing it. Red, stop. Yellow, you know, adjust or whatever.

Matt 11:11 Yeah.

Don 11:11 So we've always been doing that. That really impressed me as a board member, how flexible and willing, um, the program was to do that. So I I'd say two things. One is the, um, idea that there is a structure. No matter whether there's AI or any new technology or whatever, you still, as a market researcher, have to sort of define the business problem, how you're going to, you know, gather the consumer information, how do you analyze it, and and, you know, understand what it what it's telling you, and then how do you communicate that out to your stakeholders. Whether it's AI or new technology, whatever, that remains the same. So that structure has been there. And I think all we've done is looked at how our new technology is coming in that that address how we can do that faster, um, how we can do that, you know, so that it removes the burden of, uh, you know, repetitive tasks and such, um, from that. But we still teach the fundamentals of I mean, you have to be able to write a good questionnaire. Now are there tools that help us with that? Are there templates? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, it's up to the researcher to be able to write that instrument or to be able to analyze it or to be able to say what it means. Um, and so I think that part hasn't changed, but, yes, we brought in new tools. And probably the other thing we focused on more is that second part, less about the data gathering, the business problem, because that really hasn't changed. It's more on, I got the data. How do I analyze it? Or may maybe also how do I collect it? And then for sure on the back end, how do I communicate it?

Matt 12:52 Interesting. you know, and I'm not even talking about AI yet. But I'm wondering if you could just give us, like, the high level view on, you know, over the last decade, ten, fifteen years, what has that shift what has that evolution looked like at a high level? I have to imagine it's been tremendous, but I don't know how to map it.

Don 10:05 So, actually, it's funny you mentioned a map because that's exactly how I think we've done it. So I wanna give shout out and credit to somebody you guys know, Michael Brereton, who has been at the forefront of the relationship and started the relationship with AYTO and and our program. But, um, Michael's been instrumental of working through the curriculum and looking at it from the from the lens of an industry professional and saying, how do we prepare future talent? Right? What what skills and and kind of chunks of experience do they need to have to be successful. So we did do a big curriculum. We do about three years ago, and it was more just making sure that we could fit in other content. But even before that, we were always listening to our board members and our alums and and then when we knew in the industry, it was saying, what are we missing? You know? What do we need to do more of? You know? The the the classic, you know, um, green, you know, keep doing it. Red, stop. Yellow, you know, adjust or whatever.

Matt 11:11 Yeah.

Don 11:11 So we've always been doing that. That really impressed me as a board member, how flexible and willing, um, the program was to do that. So I I'd say two things. One is the, um, idea that there is a structure. No matter whether there's AI or any new technology or whatever, you still, as a market researcher, have to sort of define the business problem, how you're going to, you know, gather the consumer information, how do you analyze it, and and, you know, understand what it what it's telling you, and then how do you communicate that out to your stakeholders. Whether it's AI or new technology, whatever, that remains the same. So that structure has been there. And I think all we've done is looked at how our new technology is coming in that that address how we can do that faster, um, how we can do that, you know, so that it removes the burden of, uh, you know, repetitive tasks and such, um, from that. But we still teach the fundamentals of I mean, you have to be able to write a good questionnaire. Now are there tools that help us with that? Are there templates? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, it's up to the researcher to be able to write that instrument or to be able to analyze it or to be able to say what it means. Um, and so I think that part hasn't changed, but, yes, we brought in new tools. And probably the other thing we focused on more is that second part, less about the data gathering, the business problem, because that really hasn't changed. It's more on, I got the data. How do I analyze it? Or may maybe also how do I collect it? And then for sure on the back end, how do I communicate it?

Matt 12:52 Interesting. ther thing we focused on more is that second part, less about the data gathering, the business problem, because that really hasn't changed. It's more on, I got the data. How do I analyze it? Or may maybe also how do I collect it? And then for sure on the back end, how do I communicate it? Interesting.

Don 12:52 Because when I was on the board, I remember there's so much discussion, yes, about new technology, but also about tell stories. Tell stories. Don't just say, here's the chart and here's the data that we can see. So, yeah, let's say in all those areas, there's been change.

Matt 13:09 What do you think it is about the we because you mentioned, like, thinking about the research project life cycle, the upfront stuff, the the understanding of the objective and the articulation of the challenge. What do you think it is about that part that make that has so far sort of remained timeless? Like, why why has that part not really changed in terms of how it's taught today?

Don 13:35 Great question. I'd say my answer is because it's people. This business is I mean, even with automation and AI and everything, at the end of the day, it's people who need something done talking to people who you're looking to to help them. And so that that upfront part, which I say in our two critical, like, real world courses, the capstone and the group project course, you've got to get that right. You've got to make sure you understand what the client is looking for and make sure that your objectives tied to that, etcetera. And so we put a lot of emphasis on that because that, you know, that's just fundamentally not going to change.

Matt 14:16 Yeah.

Stephanie 14:18 I guess in in light of that, uh, what do you think and I think I'm particularly interested in from a soft skill perspective because I think we probably could all align on the foundational sort of, uh, functional skills that that researchers need. But what do you think, especially today, are the most critical soft skills that this generation of incoming insights professionals need to be cultivating? ther thing we focused on more is that second part, less about the data gathering, the business problem, because that really hasn't changed. It's more on, I got the data. How do I analyze it? Or may maybe also how do I collect it? And then for sure on the back end, how do I communicate it?

Matt 12:52 Interesting.

Don 12:52 Because when I was on the board, I remember there's so much discussion, yes, about new technology, but also about tell stories. Tell stories. Don't just say, here's the chart and here's the data that we can see. So, yeah, let's say in all those areas, there's been change.

Matt 13:09 What do you think it is about the we because you mentioned, like, thinking about the research project life cycle, the upfront stuff, the the understanding of the objective and the articulation of the challenge. What do you think it is about that part that make that has so far sort of remained timeless? Like, why why has that part not really changed in terms of how it's taught today?

Don 13:35 Great question. I'd say my answer is because it's people. This business is I mean, even with automation and AI and everything, at the end of the day, it's people who need something done talking to people who you're looking to to help them. And so that that upfront part, which I say in our two critical, like, real world courses, the capstone and the group project course, you've got to get that right. You've got to make sure you understand what the client is looking for and make sure that your objectives tied to that, etcetera. And so we put a lot of emphasis on that because that, you know, that's just fundamentally not going to change.

Matt 14:16 Yeah.

Stephanie 14:18 I guess in in light of that, uh, what do you think and I think I'm particularly interested in from a soft skill perspective because I think we probably could all align on the foundational sort of, uh, functional skills that that researchers need. But what do you think, especially today, are the most critical soft skills that this generation of incoming insights professionals need to be cultivating? nterested in from a soft skill perspective because I think we probably could all align on the foundational sort of, uh, functional skills that that researchers need. But what do you think, especially today, are the most critical soft skills that this generation of incoming insights professionals need to be cultivating?

Don 14:44 I'm really glad you said soft skills because usually I get the what skills do they have? And, of course, you have to talk about, you know, all those fundamental skills of of technical prowess and analytics and all of that. But soft skills, I think, is the area that, you know, it's hard to teach, and it's not something we generally put focus on. Um, I'd start with communication because that that's something that actually in a group project course, I mean, we talk about just even, like, how do you write an email to a client? Like Yeah. How do you how do you how do you do that? How formal are you supposed to be? Um, what information do you wanna communicate? You know? How you know, don't use too many colors and things. These are all, like, personal style things, but they're things that that, you know, the researchers are gonna have to face in the first part of their job. So I think being able to to communicate via email or written communication, be able to communicate verbally and articulate your thoughts is really critical. Um, I'd say next is probably that idea of critical thinking and just being able to to process what it is you're hearing and have empathy for the whoever the stakeholders you're working with. And, again, we try to bring as much as that as we can into the classroom, um, of just putting yourself in the other person's shoes and being able to play back what you hear. And I I think that's something that I hear a lot from talking to companies on the board about, you know, making sure that the students have an opportunity to practice those listening skills and those communication skills.

Stephanie 16:26 Yep. Definitely agree.

Matt 16:30 Sorry, Steph. Did you have a follow-up on that?

Stephanie 16:32 No. I was just I'm in I'm in the vigorous agreement with that.

Matt 16:37 It it's funny because, like, um, I keep coming back to this thing that that you said, Dawn, about how different this the the student slash recent graduates are after that first, you know, two to three years in the wild, so to speak, um, compared to, you know, when when you last saw them in the classroom. And I wonder, like, is it is it is it because they have learned some of those, like, some of those fundamental soft skills? Is it because they've they is it is it that they've built up their confidence? Um, is it just that what is it? What what what is so what is so important about the first two to three years, uh, post graduation in a in a young researcher's career? What's what's critical? nterested in from a soft skill perspective because I think we probably could all align on the foundational sort of, uh, functional skills that that researchers need. But what do you think, especially today, are the most critical soft skills that this generation of incoming insights professionals need to be cultivating?

Don 14:44 I'm really glad you said soft skills because usually I get the what skills do they have? And, of course, you have to talk about, you know, all those fundamental skills of of technical prowess and analytics and all of that. But soft skills, I think, is the area that, you know, it's hard to teach, and it's not something we generally put focus on. Um, I'd start with communication because that that's something that actually in a group project course, I mean, we talk about just even, like, how do you write an email to a client? Like Yeah. How do you how do you how do you do that? How formal are you supposed to be? Um, what information do you wanna communicate? You know? How you know, don't use too many colors and things. These are all, like, personal style things, but they're things that that, you know, the researchers are gonna have to face in the first part of their job. So I think being able to to communicate via email or written communication, be able to communicate verbally and articulate your thoughts is really critical. Um, I'd say next is probably that idea of critical thinking and just being able to to process what it is you're hearing and have empathy for the whoever the stakeholders you're working with. And, again, we try to bring as much as that as we can into the classroom, um, of just putting yourself in the other person's shoes and being able to play back what you hear. And I I think that's something that I hear a lot from talking to companies on the board about, you know, making sure that the students have an opportunity to practice those listening skills and those communication skills.

Stephanie 16:26 Yep. Definitely agree.

Matt 16:30 Sorry, Steph. Did you have a follow-up on that?

Stephanie 16:32 No. I was just I'm in I'm in the vigorous agreement with that.

Matt 16:37 It it's funny because, like, um, I keep coming back to this thing that that you said, Dawn, about how different this the the student slash recent graduates are after that first, you know, two to three years in the wild, so to speak, um, compared to, you know, when when you last saw them in the classroom. And I wonder, like, is it is it is it because they have learned some of those, like, some of those fundamental soft skills? Is it because they've they is it is it that they've built up their confidence? Um, is it just that what is it? What what what is so what is so important about the first two to three years, uh, post graduation in a in a young researcher's career? What's what's critical? hose, like, some of those fundamental soft skills? Is it because they've they is it is it that they've built up their confidence? Um, is it just that what is it? What what what is so what is so important about the first two to three years, uh, post graduation in a in a young researcher's career? What's what's critical?

Don 17:26 So you brought up confidence. I don't know what you did. I think that is the biggest thing that I know that many folks going into any job, but particularly in this field because, uh, there wasn't a market research many market research degree opportunities. Right? Everyone learned on the job. You know? If you go back to people who've been doing this for for twenty, thirty years, there wasn't an MSMR program. We hit Michigan State or Georgia or elsewhere. So that ability to to jump into a role where you're like, I you know, this hasn't been done or whatever. Um, so that idea of imposter syndrome is something I see a lot of that I think that just doing it with practice. And I remind students all the time, it's just practice. It's just reps.

Stephanie 18:14 It is. Yeah.

Don 18:15 You're gonna get it. You you know? And so don't worry. I mean, we do a questionnaire, like, the first time in group project. I'm like, you're gonna do so many of this. You're gonna get you'll be able to recognize your own, like, you know, uh, things that you typically do that you know? Or what you're really good at and what other people will catch. And that and you anyone who tells you they can write a perfect questionnaire that no one's gonna have any comments on is just probably not telling the truth. Right? Like, we all so it's just trying to set that grounding with them. And I I think it's that I think it's two things. They they gain confidence and they just get reps. And I think that just makes them just seem so much more comfortable and at ease than, you know, when they're still going through the first time. It's like all new, and we get there. So we try to give them that safe space where they can kinda screw up a little bit and hopefully come out the other end, you know, going that was great.

Stephanie 19:11 Well and the reality is, and I've we all know this too, but they're gonna continue to make those mistakes and, you know, through their career. And I the best learning moments I've ever had with, you know, that just stick out to me for myself and for all the, you know, folks who have worked in my teams over the years are those projects that just really go sideways. Right? And you you first take the task of fixing the issues, your problem solving. Right? But at the end of that, I always love that moment where you get to debrief and somebody's being so hard on themselves and you're like, let me tell you something. You're never gonna forget this. Like, you will never make this mistake again. So don't like, I know that's a painful lesson, but you're gonna carry this forever, and you will never do this thing again. Like, this is how we grow. So it's a very iterative, like, growing kind of role, I think, in in market research. hose, like, some of those fundamental soft skills? Is it because they've they is it is it that they've built up their confidence? Um, is it just that what is it? What what what is so what is so important about the first two to three years, uh, post graduation in a in a young researcher's career? What's what's critical?

Don 17:26 So you brought up confidence. I don't know what you did. I think that is the biggest thing that I know that many folks going into any job, but particularly in this field because, uh, there wasn't a market research many market research degree opportunities. Right? Everyone learned on the job. You know? If you go back to people who've been doing this for for twenty, thirty years, there wasn't an MSMR program. We hit Michigan State or Georgia or elsewhere. So that ability to to jump into a role where you're like, I you know, this hasn't been done or whatever. Um, so that idea of imposter syndrome is something I see a lot of that I think that just doing it with practice. And I remind students all the time, it's just practice. It's just reps.

Stephanie 18:14 It is. Yeah.

Don 18:15 You're gonna get it. You you know? And so don't worry. I mean, we do a questionnaire, like, the first time in group project. I'm like, you're gonna do so many of this. You're gonna get you'll be able to recognize your own, like, you know, uh, things that you typically do that you know? Or what you're really good at and what other people will catch. And that and you anyone who tells you they can write a perfect questionnaire that no one's gonna have any comments on is just probably not telling the truth. Right? Like, we all so it's just trying to set that grounding with them. And I I think it's that I think it's two things. They they gain confidence and they just get reps. And I think that just makes them just seem so much more comfortable and at ease than, you know, when they're still going through the first time. It's like all new, and we get there. So we try to give them that safe space where they can kinda screw up a little bit and hopefully come out the other end, you know, going that was great.

Stephanie 19:11 Well and the reality is, and I've we all know this too, but they're gonna continue to make those mistakes and, you know, through their career. And I the best learning moments I've ever had with, you know, that just stick out to me for myself and for all the, you know, folks who have worked in my teams over the years are those projects that just really go sideways. Right? And you you first take the task of fixing the issues, your problem solving. Right? But at the end of that, I always love that moment where you get to debrief and somebody's being so hard on themselves and you're like, let me tell you something. You're never gonna forget this. Like, you will never make this mistake again. So don't like, I know that's a painful lesson, but you're gonna carry this forever, and you will never do this thing again. Like, this is how we grow. So it's a very iterative, like, growing kind of role, I think, in in market research. hing. You're never gonna forget this. Like, you will never make this mistake again. So don't like, I know that's a painful lesson, but you're gonna carry this forever, and you will never do this thing again. Like, this is how we grow. So it's a very iterative, like, growing kind of role, I think, in in market research.

Don 20:07 Alright. This is off topic while we tell this little story. I had a director who came into my office at GfK, um, who were doing an overseas study, and we messed up something in the sampling frame or something. It was definitely our fault, not the clients, not the vendor. We had person came in to tell me what had happened and what they plan to do about it. Uh, through the talk, but the financial impact would be okay. You know, what's wrong? Oh, I thought I was gonna get fired. Why would I fire you? You're like one of the like, you came in here. You had a problem. You told me what you're gonna do about it. You wound up to it, and you're about and you already thought three steps ahead. This stuff happens.

Stephanie 20:49 It does.

Don 20:50 Yeah. Stop beating yourself up. Right? And that's what people need to understand.

Matt 20:57 I I don't know what either of you were talking about because having worked for both of you, I never made a single mistake.

Stephanie 21:02 Uh, it wasn't Matt. He's right.

Matt 21:04 Either yeah.

Don 21:05 It wasn't me.

Matt 21:06 Yeah. Yeah. It was I was just I was just an intern, man. I was just minding my own business. That's that's why it's an interesting question to me though is that, you know, I'm I'm somewhat far removed from that phase, but not so far as I don't remember it. And, uh, it is a really interesting time in in I mean, we keep seeing a young researcher's career, but probably a young professionals in in any verticals careers. Those those first few years when you're just learning how much you don't know. Um, so that kinda leads me into my next question, which is loaded and and big, but it's just we gotta tackle it somehow. So now we have these young researchers who are being asked to contend with AI. So now AI is here. We did it, everybody. AI exists. It it it lives. Artificial intelligence is real. Um, how is this changing the landscape for for lack of a a more specific way to ask that question? Um, you know, of course, I know there are whole bunch of academic implications of AI from the, like, you know, how do we ensure that our students are are doing the work that they say they're doing and all that. That's interesting enough in its own. It's a different discussion. But this is like, you know, people are wondering AI can do research. Some of these AI applications that are out there, um, are being actively positioned as as, uh, you know, being akin to um, a highly skilled research analyst. Uh, how how are we dealing with that with this with with the young generation? hing. You're never gonna forget this. Like, you will never make this mistake again. So don't like, I know that's a painful lesson, but you're gonna carry this forever, and you will never do this thing again. Like, this is how we grow. So it's a very iterative, like, growing kind of role, I think, in in market research.

Don 20:07 Alright. This is off topic while we tell this little story. I had a director who came into my office at GfK, um, who were doing an overseas study, and we messed up something in the sampling frame or something. It was definitely our fault, not the clients, not the vendor. We had person came in to tell me what had happened and what they plan to do about it. Uh, through the talk, but the financial impact would be okay. You know, what's wrong? Oh, I thought I was gonna get fired. Why would I fire you? You're like one of the like, you came in here. You had a problem. You told me what you're gonna do about it. You wound up to it, and you're about and you already thought three steps ahead. This stuff happens.

Stephanie 20:49 It does.

Don 20:50 Yeah. Stop beating yourself up. Right? And that's what people need to understand.

Matt 20:57 I I don't know what either of you were talking about because having worked for both of you, I never made a single mistake.

Stephanie 21:02 Uh, it wasn't Matt. He's right.

Matt 21:04 Either yeah.

Don 21:05 It wasn't me.

Matt 21:06 Yeah. Yeah. It was I was just I was just an intern, man. I was just minding my own business. That's that's why it's an interesting question to me though is that, you know, I'm I'm somewhat far removed from that phase, but not so far as I don't remember it. And, uh, it is a really interesting time in in I mean, we keep seeing a young researcher's career, but probably a young professionals in in any verticals careers. Those those first few years when you're just learning how much you don't know. Um, so that kinda leads me into my next question, which is loaded and and big, but it's just we gotta tackle it somehow. So now we have these young researchers who are being asked to contend with AI. So now AI is here. We did it, everybody. AI exists. It it it lives. Artificial intelligence is real. Um, how is this changing the landscape for for lack of a a more specific way to ask that question? Um, you know, of course, I know there are whole bunch of academic implications of AI from the, like, you know, how do we ensure that our students are are doing the work that they say they're doing and all that. That's interesting enough in its own. It's a different discussion. But this is like, you know, people are wondering AI can do research. Some of these AI applications that are out there, um, are being actively positioned as as, uh, you know, being akin to um, a highly skilled research analyst. Uh, how how are we dealing with that with this with with the young generation? nt discussion. But this is like, you know, people are wondering AI can do research. Some of these AI applications that are out there, um, are being actively positioned as as, uh, you know, being akin to um, a highly skilled research analyst. Uh, how how are we dealing with that with this with with the young generation?

Don 22:53 Great question. You're right. We could spend a lot of time on the implications as, you know, somebody who's trying to teach when they're given a tool, and I have to be reminded that k. This is my calculator. Okay? I said you guys don't know what this is, but I was of the era when these were new. And before that, there were, you know, side rules. But

Matt 23:14 I love it. This you is that a 1985 Casper

Don 23:17 a e 12 c, and it is from 1985, actually, because I got it right before I went to grad school at Northwestern. But that's not the point. The point is it's still going, and I still use it. And people were scared because you could program that thing. I have no idea now. I can barely divide with it, but

Matt 23:33 Oh, yeah.

Don 23:33 You could program to do a lot of things. And what's the point of that if, you know, you're supposed to be learning the original? Well, the point is you had to learn how to program it, so that is the skill you're gaining. So it's not I have to be honest. I was skeptical of AI and then a bit terrified of it as an instructor because I saw this was even let's go back to fall, this fall, because I saw students using it as a way to just do their homework.

Stephanie 24:03 It's a shortcut. Yeah. nt discussion. But this is like, you know, people are wondering AI can do research. Some of these AI applications that are out there, um, are being actively positioned as as, uh, you know, being akin to um, a highly skilled research analyst. Uh, how how are we dealing with that with this with with the young generation?

Don 22:53 Great question. You're right. We could spend a lot of time on the implications as, you know, somebody who's trying to teach when they're given a tool, and I have to be reminded that k. This is my calculator. Okay? I said you guys don't know what this is, but I was of the era when these were new. And before that, there were, you know, side rules. But

Matt 23:14 I love it. This you is that a 1985 Casper

Don 23:17 a e 12 c, and it is from 1985, actually, because I got it right before I went to grad school at Northwestern. But that's not the point. The point is it's still going, and I still use it. And people were scared because you could program that thing. I have no idea now. I can barely divide with it, but

Matt 23:33 Oh, yeah.

Don 23:33 You could program to do a lot of things. And what's the point of that if, you know, you're supposed to be learning the original? Well, the point is you had to learn how to program it, so that is the skill you're gaining. So it's not I have to be honest. I was skeptical of AI and then a bit terrified of it as an instructor because I saw this was even let's go back to fall, this fall, because I saw students using it as a way to just do their homework.

Stephanie 24:03 It's a shortcut. Yeah. it, so that is the skill you're gaining. So it's not I have to be honest. I was skeptical of AI and then a bit terrified of it as an instructor because I saw this was even let's go back to fall, this fall, because I saw students using it as a way to just do their homework. It's a shortcut. Yeah.

Don 24:05 Yeah. Basically, just this is the words he said to write. Go write me words. The problem was that they're not actually doing the thinking. We won't go back to critical thinking. You know? If all you can do is that, and that may be a valuable skill is we know that how you prompt AI and all that is something that is a skill, just like knowing how to program this calculator. Right? But we're talking, like, I don't wanna do any work. Let me just plug it in. And the responses were pretty easy to Yeah. Decipher. Okay. I just went through this with my teaching assistants in the last month, plugged in the same thing. It's scary. Now the other thing that I learned about it is trying not to be afraid of it from that standpoint. The students who want to learn will use it in the right way. Mhmm. We say that you need to have, like, hands on your keyboard. Right? Like, this needs to be something you do for your boss. That's how we sort of grow. Like, this is future you is gonna be out there working in six to twelve months, and you need to be able to do this. So if you want to use AI, if you're stuck on something, that's fine. Like, I they're doing their capstones now, and I they are expected to use secondary research. So fine. You know? You use AI. It's gonna ask you. The the light bulb moment for me was actually doing a survey that you will get now as an as an alum. We're we're doing this to current students. We surprised we haven't done it before. Just kind of a checking in before they start the program, after the program, and then with the ones about, you know, their experience and what are they up to and and all that sort of stuff. So we were working on this for a month or two with the TAs, and we were stuck on some responses to, like, why did you select this program or whatever. We're on a call, and it was actually professor McInnis who suggested, hey. I just plugged in this into quad or something and got back. This is how to categorize it. And that light bulb went off for me. I'm like, that's the right use of AI for researchers. If you're stuck in an area and you need to get unblocked, then, yeah, use it that way. You still need to write. And I don't have any problem with people going, what's a good way to ask this question in Google? And before there was AI prompts that we

Matt 26:19 could answer.

Stephanie 26:20 Yeah. it, so that is the skill you're gaining. So it's not I have to be honest. I was skeptical of AI and then a bit terrified of it as an instructor because I saw this was even let's go back to fall, this fall, because I saw students using it as a way to just do their homework. It's a shortcut. Yeah.

Don 24:05 Yeah. Basically, just this is the words he said to write. Go write me words. The problem was that they're not actually doing the thinking. We won't go back to critical thinking. You know? If all you can do is that, and that may be a valuable skill is we know that how you prompt AI and all that is something that is a skill, just like knowing how to program this calculator. Right? But we're talking, like, I don't wanna do any work. Let me just plug it in. And the responses were pretty easy to Yeah. Decipher. Okay. I just went through this with my teaching assistants in the last month, plugged in the same thing. It's scary. Now the other thing that I learned about it is trying not to be afraid of it from that standpoint. The students who want to learn will use it in the right way. Mhmm. We say that you need to have, like, hands on your keyboard. Right? Like, this needs to be something you do for your boss. That's how we sort of grow. Like, this is future you is gonna be out there working in six to twelve months, and you need to be able to do this. So if you want to use AI, if you're stuck on something, that's fine. Like, I they're doing their capstones now, and I they are expected to use secondary research. So fine. You know? You use AI. It's gonna ask you. The the light bulb moment for me was actually doing a survey that you will get now as an as an alum. We're we're doing this to current students. We surprised we haven't done it before. Just kind of a checking in before they start the program, after the program, and then with the ones about, you know, their experience and what are they up to and and all that sort of stuff. So we were working on this for a month or two with the TAs, and we were stuck on some responses to, like, why did you select this program or whatever. We're on a call, and it was actually professor McInnis who suggested, hey. I just plugged in this into quad or something and got back. This is how to categorize it. And that light bulb went off for me. I'm like, that's the right use of AI for researchers. If you're stuck in an area and you need to get unblocked, then, yeah, use it that way. You still need to write. And I don't have any problem with people going, what's a good way to ask this question in Google? And before there was AI prompts that we

Matt 26:19 could answer.

Stephanie 26:20 Yeah. earchers. If you're stuck in an area and you need to get unblocked, then, yeah, use it that way. You still need to write. And I don't have any problem with people going, what's a good way to ask this question in Google? And before there was AI prompts that we

Matt 26:19 could answer.

Stephanie 26:20 Yeah.

Don 26:20 Right? I mean, because take advantage of the experience. I mean, in companies, you'll have old questionnaires you can look at. Right? So that's not the the point. That's where the critical thinking comes in. And how do I put this mess together in a way and listen to my clients and understand who they are and what they're looking for. But that's the part that we're still struggling a little bit. There's still gonna be people who who want a shortcut, but I think we found that by embracing it and allowing them to use it and practice it, um, and we do get them hands on with a lot of these tools, um, is the best way to you know, for not only us not to be afraid of it, but to understand what they're going to have at their disposal going into the work the workplace.

Matt 27:05 It makes a lot of sense. Like, you you wanna approach it with critical thinking yourself, you know, if it if it's, at the end of the day, critical thinking that you're you're trying to instill in the students. It's like, let's, you know, let's be critical and intentional about how we evaluate the tools. Uh, it sounds like, you know, it's let's, um, let's actually get in there and experiment and and see what it can do for research. And so sounds like you're you're using that to go back and inform your your curriculum with a a, um, a well positioned, well well educated perspective on what the tools can do. earchers. If you're stuck in an area and you need to get unblocked, then, yeah, use it that way. You still need to write. And I don't have any problem with people going, what's a good way to ask this question in Google? And before there was AI prompts that we could answer.

Stephanie 26:20 Yeah.

Don 26:20 Right? I mean, because take advantage of the experience. I mean, in companies, you'll have old questionnaires you can look at. Right? So that's not the the point. That's where the critical thinking comes in. And how do I put this mess together in a way and listen to my clients and understand who they are and what they're looking for. But that's the part that we're still struggling a little bit. There's still gonna be people who who want a shortcut, but I think we found that by embracing it and allowing them to use it and practice it, um, and we do get them hands on with a lot of these tools, um, is the best way to you know, for not only us not to be afraid of it, but to understand what they're going to have at their disposal going into the work the workplace.

Matt 27:05 It makes a lot of sense. Like, you you wanna approach it with critical thinking yourself, you know, if it if it's, at the end of the day, critical thinking that you're you're trying to instill in the students. It's like, let's, you know, let's be critical and intentional about how we evaluate the tools. Uh, it sounds like, you know, it's let's, um, let's actually get in there and experiment and and see what it can do for research. And so sounds like you're you're using that to go back and inform your your curriculum with a a, um, a well positioned, well well educated perspective on what the tools can do. te the tools. Uh, it sounds like, you know, it's let's, um, let's actually get in there and experiment and and see what it can do for research. And so sounds like you're you're using that to go back and inform your your curriculum with a a, um, a well positioned, well well educated perspective on what the tools can do.

Don 27:43 Right. We we throw them in and then have them do it, but then also reflect on what what it is. Like, what worked. But so one of the things I'll tell any student because this this comes up at the end of the year, like, we do a final supposed to write a reflective essay about their internship experience or whatever. And a lot of times I'll get, well and we ask things like, you know, is there anything that you wish the program will be talking? So, you know, typical, oh, you know, they use Tableau over here, and we didn't have that course, or I didn't find and my answer to the students earlier on is always, we can't teach you every tool. I mean, that we just think it wouldn't fit in the curriculum. What I ask you to do is learn how to learn in this form. So we open up and and allow you to use it. Okay. So, yeah, you may be using another tool, um, a platform that's similar to AYTM or whatever, and you you gotta be exposed to it. You go to Sarcana. They get their own way of mining their in house data. You learn how to learn and then also always be, I mean, you guys are on the agency side. I've been on on both. And, you know, there's always gonna be a bright, shiny object that comes in. That's what we used to call them the GFA. Like, here's another bright, shiny object that people get. Oh, let's run toward that. And then six months later, somebody else is gonna come in and go, but, yeah, look what we can do. Like, you know, you have that, but this is better. Always be skeptical. So open to new things, but always be skeptical about whatever analytical tool you're using, what software you're using, methodology. Like, nothing is perfect, but everything will work if you, you know, approach it in the right way. te the tools. Uh, it sounds like, you know, it's let's, um, let's actually get in there and experiment and and see what it can do for research. And so sounds like you're you're using that to go back and inform your your curriculum with a a, um, a well positioned, well well educated perspective on what the tools can do. Right. We we throw them in and then have them do it, but then also reflect on what what it is. Like, what worked. But so one of the things I'll tell any student because this this comes up at the end of the year, like, we do a final supposed to write a reflective essay about their internship experience or whatever. And a lot of times I'll get, well and we ask things like, you know, is there anything that you wish the program will be talking? So, you know, typical, oh, you know, they use Tableau over here, and we didn't have that course, or I didn't find and my answer to the students earlier on is always, we can't teach you every tool. I mean, that we just think it wouldn't fit in the curriculum. What I ask you to do is learn how to learn in this form. So we open up and and allow you to use it. Okay. So, yeah, you may be using another tool, um, a platform that's similar to AYTM or whatever, and you you gotta be exposed to it. You go to Sarcana. They get their own way of mining their in house data. You learn how to learn and then also always be, I mean, you guys are on the agency side. I've been on on both. And, you know, there's always gonna be a bright, shiny object that comes in. That's what we used to call them the GFA. Like, here's another bright, shiny object that people get. Oh, let's run toward that. And then six months later, somebody else is gonna come in and go, but, yeah, look what we can do. Like, you know, you have that, but this is better. Always be skeptical. So open to new things, but always be skeptical about whatever analytical tool you're using, what software you're using, methodology. Like, nothing is perfect, but everything will work if you, you know, approach it in the right way. what we can do. Like, you know, you have that, but this is better. Always be skeptical. So open to new things, but always be skeptical about whatever analytical tool you're using, what software you're using, methodology. Like, nothing is perfect, but everything will work if you, you know, approach it in the right way.

Stephanie 29:24 I think too with with generative AI, something that I I think about a lot and try to convey to, especially, like, more junior team members who do, like, have a lot of questions about what their career is going to look like longer term. And I I think that, you know, humans are still the arbiters of quality. Right? And human experts, right, are the arbiters of quality in the context of market research. And you don't get that expertise without knowing how to do the thing. Right? So even if you could ask Chappie CPT or Claude to, like, write a survey for you, and it's relatively decent, uh, you know, you could probably do that a few times. You're gonna get caught at some point with something a little funky in there. Right? And that's the whole point is that you need to have that knowledge base to effectively be able to say, this is what's gotta be changed here. We're never gonna hit this business objective because x, y, or z is missing, and and it it sort of takes parallel pathing those things. Get good at using AI. Absolutely. That's gonna serve you well, but don't stop using your critical thinking skills to your point, Don, because they're they're gonna work together to be effective.

Don 30:34 That's exactly it. It's still a people driven business, and people are expecting results. They're the ones asking the questions. And if you could just feed it into a machine, then why would they need you? So we have to be able to, as researchers, deliver that value. And, yes, we need to embrace the tools so we can do things smarter, faster, cheaper, because that will never go away. That's been constant forever, and it's not gonna change. But, um, Yeah. At the end of the day, it's some bits. And and not only are we as people dealing with it, but we're also talking to consumers. So the one thing I can't wrap my head around, right, now is this idea that you can create responses, and I know how it's doing it through algorithms. But that scares me in that yeah. If you wanna see, like, how your dashboard looks with real data, I get that. You guys have a tool, and we have to practice with it. But the the thought that you're gonna replace real consumer responses, uh, that one still concerns me. Because at the end of the day, research is about getting information from concerns. what we can do. Like, you know, you have that, but this is better. Always be skeptical. So open to new things, but always be skeptical about whatever analytical tool you're using, what software you're using, methodology. Like, nothing is perfect, but everything will work if you, you know, approach it in the right way.

Stephanie 29:24 I think too with with generative AI, something that I I think about a lot and try to convey to, especially, like, more junior team members who do, like, have a lot of questions about what their career is going to look like longer term. And I I think that, you know, humans are still the arbiters of quality. Right? And human experts, right, are the arbiters of quality in the context of market research. And you don't get that expertise without knowing how to do the thing. Right? So even if you could ask Chappie CPT or Claude to, like, write a survey for you, and it's relatively decent, uh, you know, you could probably do that a few times. You're gonna get caught at some point with something a little funky in there. Right? And that's the whole point is that you need to have that knowledge base to effectively be able to say, this is what's gotta be changed here. We're never gonna hit this business objective because x, y, or z is missing, and and it it sort of takes parallel pathing those things. Get good at using AI. Absolutely. That's gonna serve you well, but don't stop using your critical thinking skills to your point, Don, because they're they're gonna work together to be effective.

Don 30:34 That's exactly it. It's still a people driven business, and people are expecting results. They're the ones asking the questions. And if you could just feed it into a machine, then why would they need you? So we have to be able to, as researchers, deliver that value. And, yes, we need to embrace the tools so we can do things smarter, faster, cheaper, because that will never go away. That's been constant forever, and it's not gonna change. But, um, Yeah. At the end of the day, it's some bits. And and not only are we as people dealing with it, but we're also talking to consumers. So the one thing I can't wrap my head around, right, now is this idea that you can create responses, and I know how it's doing it through algorithms. But that scares me in that yeah. If you wanna see, like, how your dashboard looks with real data, I get that. You guys have a tool, and we have to practice with it. But the the thought that you're gonna replace real consumer responses, uh, that one still concerns me. Because at the end of the day, research is about getting information from concerns. . If you wanna see, like, how your dashboard looks with real data, I get that. You guys have a tool, and we have to practice with it. But the the thought that you're gonna replace real consumer responses, uh, that one still concerns me. Because at the end of the day, research is about getting information from concerns.

Stephanie 31:38 Yeah. There's a lot there. It's true. I feel like when you play it out to the end, it's very recursive. Right? Like, it's just learning from yeah. Uh, so, yeah, it'll be interesting to see. It'll be really interesting to see how that aspect of things plays out over time. Um, if we can switch gears a little bit, I mean, I know we all love to talk about AI, uh, but I'm curious. And you talked about this a little bit already, but I would love if you could, from your perspective, um, and I have a little bit of perspective on this too. But what gaps do you see between what's being taught in the classroom and then what's expected in the workplace when you have these m s um, MR grads going out. Um, and like I said, as a hiring manager, especially on the supplier side, and I think that's, you know, it's unique to the supplier side. But I definitely have some things that I notice, uh, our areas where we've gotten to a point where I really just what I expect and desire is good foundational skills, and I expect to teach the rest on the job. I had that expectation. But I wonder, do you think that that's generally the way that it should and does work, or do you think that there should be, uh, preparation for a lot of those kinds of soft skills, like, for for us? And I would say it's it's problem solving, um, in the moment, you know, uh, communication to your point. But in on the supplier side, to me, a lot of times that looks like code switching, being a really effective code switcher between different kinds of clients and then internal communication. Um, and then just being able to juggle a lot of different projects and different brands and different types of products. Right? Because that's something that you don't experience as much on the client side. So I have these little areas where I know people are gonna be overwhelmed at first, and it's kind of in those areas. And so I try to, like, ensure that we have the space to start working on those. But how do you think about those gaps? And and do you, like yeah. Where is the the right place to be addressing them? . If you wanna see, like, how your dashboard looks with real data, I get that. You guys have a tool, and we have to practice with it. But the the thought that you're gonna replace real consumer responses, uh, that one still concerns me. Because at the end of the day, research is about getting information from concerns. Yeah. There's a lot there. It's true. I feel like when you play it out to the end, it's very recursive. Right? Like, it's just learning from yeah. Uh, so, yeah, it'll be interesting to see. It'll be really interesting to see how that aspect of things plays out over time. Um, if we can switch gears a little bit, I mean, I know we all love to talk about AI, uh, but I'm curious. And you talked about this a little bit already, but I would love if you could, from your perspective, um, and I have a little bit of perspective on this too. But what gaps do you see between what's being taught in the classroom and then what's expected in the workplace when you have these m s um, MR grads going out. Um, and like I said, as a hiring manager, especially on the supplier side, and I think that's, you know, it's unique to the supplier side. But I definitely have some things that I notice, uh, our areas where we've gotten to a point where I really just what I expect and desire is good foundational skills, and I expect to teach the rest on the job. I had that expectation. But I wonder, do you think that that's generally the way that it should and does work, or do you think that there should be, uh, preparation for a lot of those kinds of soft skills, like, for for us? And I would say it's it's problem solving, um, in the moment, you know, uh, communication to your point. But in on the supplier side, to me, a lot of times that looks like code switching, being a really effective code switcher between different kinds of clients and then internal communication. Um, and then just being able to juggle a lot of different projects and different brands and different types of products. Right? Because that's something that you don't experience as much on the client side. So I have these little areas where I know people are gonna be overwhelmed at first, and it's kind of in those areas. And so I try to, like, ensure that we have the space to start working on those. But how do you think about those gaps? And and do you, like yeah. Where is the the right place to be addressing them? side. So I have these little areas where I know people are gonna be overwhelmed at first, and it's kind of in those areas. And so I try to, like, ensure that we have the space to start working on those. But how do you think about those gaps? And and do you, like yeah. Where is the the right place to be addressing them?

Don 33:38 That's great question. I I love the practical nature of this conversation because that's what really, again, attracted me to teach and be involved with the board. So it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Um, look. You can't just give people experience. Right? You you you like, to your point about the two to three years out, that's because it's been two to three years of them doing the job, running into those roadblocks, stumbling a little bit, having a great mentor or manager who guides them through it. But hopefully, they are coming in like the director I mentioned with not just here's a problem, but, like, here's what I tried to do. And then I wouldn't talk to this person. Here's my plan of action. And I just wanna make sure you're, you know, you don't have any say, and you might have suggestions, and that's what they're there to learn. Um, I think it's that kind of professionalism that I think is just getting the I think that that gap is just that that experience. And,

Matt 34:41 yeah,

Don 34:42 I mean, there's no way to replicate being bombarded with 12 projects at once in running them. Like, we're not gonna do No. I I've come close. I had them doing three projects over the summer one, so it's fine. It's

Stephanie 34:53 gross. Good.

Don 34:54 Um, that that was it might have broken me too because I had 12. But, you know, do doing that and then being a difference. I mean, you can't all we can do is expose them and talk about it and get them experience. I mean, if I can make a plug about the program, and again, you heard me talk about it. The thing I think we

Matt 35:14 do nicely is a balance of, yes, here's how to write a questionnaire, here's how to side. So I have these little areas where I know people are gonna be overwhelmed at first, and it's kind of in those areas. And so I try to, like, ensure that we have the space to start working on those. But how do you think about those gaps? And and do you, like yeah. Where is the the right place to be addressing them?

Don 33:38 That's great question. I I love the practical nature of this conversation because that's what really, again, attracted me to teach and be involved with the board. So it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. Um, look. You can't just give people experience. Right? You you you like, to your point about the two to three years out, that's because it's been two to three years of them doing the job, running into those roadblocks, stumbling a little bit, having a great mentor or manager who guides them through it. But hopefully, they are coming in like the director I mentioned with not just here's a problem, but, like, here's what I tried to do. And then I wouldn't talk to this person. Here's my plan of action. And I just wanna make sure you're, you know, you don't have any say, and you might have suggestions, and that's what they're there to learn. Um, I think it's that kind of professionalism that I think is just getting the I think that that gap is just that that experience. And,

Matt 34:41 yeah,

Don 34:42 I mean, there's no way to replicate being bombarded with 12 projects at once in running them. Like, we're not gonna do No. I I've come close. I had them doing three projects over the summer one, so it's fine. It's

Stephanie 34:53 gross. Good.

Don 34:54 Um, that that was it might have broken me too because I had 12. But, you know, do doing that and then being a difference. I mean, you can't all we can do is expose them and talk about it and get them experience. I mean, if I can make a plug about the program, and again, you heard me talk about it. The thing I think we

Matt 35:14 do nicely is a balance of, yes, here's how to write a questionnaire, here's how to n being a difference. I mean, you can't all we can do is expose them and talk about it and get them experience. I mean, if I can make a plug about the program, and again, you heard me talk about it. The thing I think we do nicely is a balance of, yes, here's how to write a questionnaire, here's how to

Don 35:15 do a cluster analysis, cluster analysis with now go do it with this real client and stumble through all that with coaching and guardrails, etcetera, including some of the things that you're gonna experience in, quote, the real world of, hey. There's a problem with the data. Well, how do we communicate that to the client? Or, you know, I have to give a status update. There is no course on how to write a status update email. I checked. There is no course. So we try to communicate, and we've given them, like, project management tools, which is another thing that I am very passionate about, actually. It's the last role that I did at GfK. My training job was project management for 14,000 employees because everybody needs to know how to get their work done, and there are certain, you know, skills and things like that. So I I think the best that we can do is just try to at least expose them through some examples that they come in and hit the, um, are ready to hit the ground running. But, yeah, they are still very much a blank slate by the time they get to you guys or the client side. Right? But, hopefully, they're a little bit you know, they're ready to go.

Stephanie 36:29 Yeah. For sure. Uh, and and they are. I mean, like I said, we we have that expectation that that's the work that we're gonna be doing with them. Right? Like, we don't have to teach them how to interpret a crosstab. They know how to do that. Right? It's that we have to teach them, you know, those the soft skills of working in an environment with with clients. Um, I'm curious. Do you think that there's a bigger role for, like, internships in market research? Or do you feel like, you know, there's enough and as many people as want to do internships and should are probably having that experience?

Don 37:02 It's interesting because when I started with the advisory board, it was all about internships. So I think, Matt, you had one with us, and then I think you had one at Toyota?

Matt 37:13 Yeah.

Don 37:13 Yeah. Okay. So that was the model we were told. And he was all students, so we had two, three months opportunities. And then students started to accept full time jobs. And, like, the difference between internship and a full time job is I mean okay. Some internships are like, you know, we used to joke, oh, yeah. You're the student. And at the end of the twelve weeks, you're gonna tell us you, you know, about your project over a lunch and learn about you reorganize the supply closet, and that's all they did.

Stephanie 37:41 Right. n being a difference. I mean, you can't all we can do is expose them and talk about it and get them experience. I mean, if I can make a plug about the program, and again, you heard me talk about it. The thing I think we

Matt 35:14 do nicely is a balance of, yes, here's how to write a questionnaire, here's how to

Don 35:15 do a cluster analysis, cluster analysis with now go do it with this real client and stumble through all that with coaching and guardrails, etcetera, including some of the things that you're gonna experience in, quote, the real world of, hey. There's a problem with the data. Well, how do we communicate that to the client? Or, you know, I have to give a status update. There is no course on how to write a status update email. I checked. There is no course. So we try to communicate, and we've given them, like, project management tools, which is another thing that I am very passionate about, actually. It's the last role that I did at GfK. My training job was project management for 14,000 employees because everybody needs to know how to get their work done, and there are certain, you know, skills and things like that. So I I think the best that we can do is just try to at least expose them through some examples that they come in and hit the, um, are ready to hit the ground running. But, yeah, they are still very much a blank slate by the time they get to you guys or the client side. Right? But, hopefully, they're a little bit you know, they're ready to go.

Stephanie 36:29 Yeah. For sure. Uh, and and they are. I mean, like I said, we we have that expectation that that's the work that we're gonna be doing with them. Right? Like, we don't have to teach them how to interpret a crosstab. They know how to do that. Right? It's that we have to teach them, you know, those the soft skills of working in an environment with with clients. Um, I'm curious. Do you think that there's a bigger role for, like, internships in market research? Or do you feel like, you know, there's enough and as many people as want to do internships and should are probably having that experience?

Don 37:02 It's interesting because when I started with the advisory board, it was all about internships. So I think, Matt, you had one with us, and then I think you had one at Toyota?

Matt 37:13 Yeah.

Don 37:13 Yeah. Okay. So that was the model we were told. And he was all students, so we had two, three months opportunities. And then students started to accept full time jobs. And, like, the difference between internship and a full time job is I mean okay. Some internships are like, you know, we used to joke, oh, yeah. You're the student. And at the end of the twelve weeks, you're gonna tell us you, you know, about your project over a lunch and learn about you reorganize the supply closet, and that's all they did.

Stephanie 37:41 Right. ll time job is I mean okay. Some internships are like, you know, we used to joke, oh, yeah. You're the student. And at the end of the twelve weeks, you're gonna tell us you, you know, about your project over a lunch and learn about you reorganize the supply closet, and that's all they did. Right.

Don 37:42 Whereas our experience, and Matt can attest to this, was, no. You're gonna do the job of the person that you would be hired as a full time. Like, we're just gonna throw you in, and you are gonna do that job because you need to see, a, we have work to get done, and, b, you need to see what that job is so to see if you want to

Matt 38:00 Yeah. Take it

Don 38:00 on that. And so I look at internships as almost a two way trial, right, between the company and the

Matt 38:05 For sure.

Don 38:05 Yeah. And so I do think internships are a good way for both sides to get that exposure. Um, I mean, great if there were internships with more of a guaranteed pathway into full time. Like intern to

Matt 38:20 hire.

Stephanie 38:21 Yeah. Intern to hire. And

Don 38:22 some companies do that, including my my previous employer we have a good relationship with, and they, you know and then the problem is they, you know, can't always guarantee. Right? You know you have your full time positions and all that separate subject. But, um, I think internships are a great way for people who are just going into marketing research, who have heard about it, who've never done it, to experience it and decide. Like, you remember, you're talking to the guy who was an industrial engineer about a month into the job said, I do not wanna do this for the rest of my life. So that helped me do it. I just had to do it for two years. But you know what I mean? So, like, an internship of that would have been a great way for me to go. Yeah.

Stephanie 39:02 It would have been a yeah.

Don 39:03 Choose this door. Yeah.

Stephanie 39:05 Right.

Matt 39:08 So I think you've, um, um, we've kind of already started to to nibble around the edges of this next question, but I'm just curious to get your thoughts, Don, given, you know, you you've had time agency client side, um, on the education side, involved with internships. Uh, what does a more ideal partnership look like between academic institutions and the insights industry broadly? Like, what what does the next you know, if if we were to develop the the perfect program, what would that look like today?

Don 39:47 Wow. That's a pretty heavy question. Um, but I don't think I can, you know, speak on behalf of everyone.

Matt 39:52 Uh, let me just problems.

Don 39:54 Right.

Matt 39:54 Fix them all now, Don. Well, I ll time job is I mean okay. Some internships are like, you know, we used to joke, oh, yeah. You're the student. And at the end of the twelve weeks, you're gonna tell us you, you know, about your project over a lunch and learn about you reorganize the supply closet, and that's all they did.

Stephanie 37:41 Right.

Don 37:42 Whereas our experience, and Matt can attest to this, was, no. You're gonna do the job of the person that you would be hired as a full time. Like, we're just gonna throw you in, and you are gonna do that job because you need to see, a, we have work to get done, and, b, you need to see what that job is so to see if you want to

Matt 38:00 Yeah. Take it

Don 38:00 on that. And so I look at internships as almost a two way trial, right, between the company and the

Matt 38:05 For sure.

Don 38:05 Yeah. And so I do think internships are a good way for both sides to get that exposure. Um, I mean, great if there were internships with more of a guaranteed pathway into full time. Like intern to

Matt 38:20 hire.

Stephanie 38:21 Yeah. Intern to hire. And

Don 38:22 some companies do that, including my my previous employer we have a good relationship with, and they, you know and then the problem is they, you know, can't always guarantee. Right? You know you have your full time positions and all that separate subject. But, um, I think internships are a great way for people who are just going into marketing research, who have heard about it, who've never done it, to experience it and decide. Like, you remember, you're talking to the guy who was an industrial engineer about a month into the job said, I do not wanna do this for the rest of my life. So that helped me do it. I just had to do it for two years. But you know what I mean? So, like, an internship of that would have been a great way for me to go. Yeah.

Stephanie 39:02 It would have been a yeah.

Don 39:03 Choose this door. Yeah.

Stephanie 39:05 Right.

Matt 39:08 So I think you've, um, um, we've kind of already started to to nibble around the edges of this next question, but I'm just curious to get your thoughts, Don, given, you know, you you've had time agency client side, um, on the education side, involved with internships. Uh, what does a more ideal partnership look like between academic institutions and the insights industry broadly? Like, what what does the next you know, if if we were to develop the the perfect program, what would that look like today?

Don 39:47 Wow. That's a pretty heavy question. Um, but I don't think I can, you know, speak on behalf of everyone.

Matt 39:52 Uh, let me just problems.

Don 39:54 Right.

Matt 39:54 Fix them all now, Don. Well, I f if we were to develop the the perfect program, what would that look like today?

Don 39:47 Wow. That's a pretty heavy question. Um, but I don't think I can, you know, speak on behalf of everyone.

Matt 39:52 Uh, let me just problems.

Don 39:54 Right.

Matt 39:54 Fix them all now, Don. Well, I

Don 39:56 you know, I think again, I'm gonna toot the horn of the people, you know, who came before me in terms of this program. I I've been told that our model with partnering with the insights industry in the MSMR program is a hallmark even within the Michigan State, particularly in the Broad College. That the fact that we now have over a 100 companies on the agency and client side Yeah. Um, who are willing to give their time, their expertise, to mentor our students, to come speak in class, to maybe give us, yes, access to tools and come in and talk about and show the students how to use it is the best way to work together. Because the students get, I mean, we can all talk from our textbook to us. I was gonna grab a textbook, but I don't know. Right? You know, we I can pull up a textbook and go, here it all is. That's but that's great, and we have some of that. But to be able to talk to people who are actually doing it and have that back and forth, I think, is the is the best way. So I I think having willing partners who want to, you know, engage and provide input because it is an investment. I get that. A time Yeah. Mostly. Um, but I think there's something that that folks in the industry take away too of being

Stephanie 41:21 It's incredibly multi yeah. It's beneficial for both parties. Yeah.

Don 41:27 Yeah. I mean, because everybody went to college and enjoys you know? And and I think everyone likes mentoring and coaching, and and I found that, which is why I'm generally not in need of more mentors because everyone likes doing that and talking to people because they all can remember that time. Right? Um, so I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that model has worked out pretty well.

Stephanie 41:50 I think too the like, to go back to the mutual, uh, mutually beneficial aspect of it, um, I mean, like, when I think about the relationship between MSU and AYTM where students are, like, running

Matt 42:04 or executing their capstones on our platform f if we were to develop the the perfect program, what would that look like today?

Don 39:47 Wow. That's a pretty heavy question. Um, but I don't think I can, you know, speak on behalf of everyone.

Matt 39:52 Uh, let me just problems.

Don 39:54 Right.

Matt 39:54 Fix them all now, Don. Well, I

Don 39:56 you know, I think again, I'm gonna toot the horn of the people, you know, who came before me in terms of this program. I I've been told that our model with partnering with the insights industry in the MSMR program is a hallmark even within the Michigan State, particularly in the Broad College. That the fact that we now have over a 100 companies on the agency and client side Yeah. Um, who are willing to give their time, their expertise, to mentor our students, to come speak in class, to maybe give us, yes, access to tools and come in and talk about and show the students how to use it is the best way to work together. Because the students get, I mean, we can all talk from our textbook to us. I was gonna grab a textbook, but I don't know. Right? You know, we I can pull up a textbook and go, here it all is. That's but that's great, and we have some of that. But to be able to talk to people who are actually doing it and have that back and forth, I think, is the is the best way. So I I think having willing partners who want to, you know, engage and provide input because it is an investment. I get that. A time Yeah. Mostly. Um, but I think there's something that that folks in the industry take away too of being

Stephanie 41:21 It's incredibly multi yeah. It's beneficial for both parties. Yeah.

Don 41:27 Yeah. I mean, because everybody went to college and enjoys you know? And and I think everyone likes mentoring and coaching, and and I found that, which is why I'm generally not in need of more mentors because everyone likes doing that and talking to people because they all can remember that time. Right? Um, so I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that model has worked out pretty well.

Stephanie 41:50 I think too the like, to go back to the mutual, uh, mutually beneficial aspect of it, um, I mean, like, when I think about the relationship between MSU and AYTM where students are, like, running

Matt 42:04 or executing their capstones on our platform that model has worked out pretty well.

Stephanie 41:50 I think too the like, to go back to the mutual, uh, mutually beneficial aspect of it, um, I mean, like, when I think about the relationship between MSU and AYTM where students are, like, running

Matt 42:04 or executing their capstones on our platform

Stephanie 42:04 or some students are, executing their capstones on our platform or some students are. What's so nice about that for us is those are people who it wouldn't you know, we hire a lot from your program, and they know our platform already. Right? They absolutely have a leg up coming in. Like, that is less training debt that we that gets created on our side. So that's a win. The other win for us, though, is when those that same cohort of folks end up on the client side. And they're like, hey. I know a platform that I've used that was pretty you know, that was intuitive, and we were able to do our capstones because so many organizations really take the lead of of user decision makers when it comes to DIY platforms within their companies because those are the employees who are ending up, you know, sitting in front of the keyboard and using that tech, uh, specifically. It's not their directors. It's them. And so they really do tend to be part of the decision making process. And so I just wanted to call out. It's really beneficial for for us too. I think it's such a win win.

Don 43:08 And, I mean, honestly, I've I've seen it from the ones. I mean, they are at and we're not just talking large corporations, um, but even, you know, small ones where, again, DIY is probably a great way to go, and the students gotta work with what they're they're comfortable with. Um, and, you know, it is a great tool. Yes. You have other there are other great tools out there like that, but it teaches the students how to work with those things. And, yeah, I mean, I'm glad you get you get that experience because I've heard students talk about, honestly, how much they enjoy working with the the tool. And and it's that familiarity too. So, yeah, we

Stephanie 43:52 Yeah.

Don 43:53 We do appreciate it, um, because honestly, I've worked with some, um, you know, tried it in a number of different models, and this one has worked out. It's worked out very nicely.

Stephanie 44:03 Love it. Uh, well, okay. To switch gears on you yet again, uh,

Matt 44:07 and really, we're just flipping the script

Stephanie 44:07 a little bit on this one, but script a little bit on this one. But do you have advice for companies now who are looking to invest in early career researchers? And I think what I mean by that is, like, are there any common missteps that you see companies make when they're onboarding or developing new talent, especially those that are coming from from, like, a master's program? Are they underutilizing them? I don't know. I'm leaving to you. that model has worked out pretty well. I think too the like, to go back to the mutual, uh, mutually beneficial aspect of it, um, I mean, like, when I think about the relationship between MSU and AYTM where students are, like, running

Matt 42:04 or executing their capstones on our platform

Stephanie 42:04 or some students are, executing their capstones on our platform or some students are. What's so nice about that for us is those are people who it wouldn't you know, we hire a lot from your program, and they know our platform already. Right? They absolutely have a leg up coming in. Like, that is less training debt that we that gets created on our side. So that's a win. The other win for us, though, is when those that same cohort of folks end up on the client side. And they're like, hey. I know a platform that I've used that was pretty you know, that was intuitive, and we were able to do our capstones because so many organizations really take the lead of of user decision makers when it comes to DIY platforms within their companies because those are the employees who are ending up, you know, sitting in front of the keyboard and using that tech, uh, specifically. It's not their directors. It's them. And so they really do tend to be part of the decision making process. And so I just wanted to call out. It's really beneficial for for us too. I think it's such a win win.

Don 43:08 And, I mean, honestly, I've I've seen it from the ones. I mean, they are at and we're not just talking large corporations, um, but even, you know, small ones where, again, DIY is probably a great way to go, and the students gotta work with what they're they're comfortable with. Um, and, you know, it is a great tool. Yes. You have other there are other great tools out there like that, but it teaches the students how to work with those things. And, yeah, I mean, I'm glad you get you get that experience because I've heard students talk about, honestly, how much they enjoy working with the the tool. And and it's that familiarity too. So, yeah, we

Stephanie 43:52 Yeah.

Don 43:53 We do appreciate it, um, because honestly, I've worked with some, um, you know, tried it in a number of different models, and this one has worked out. It's worked out very nicely.

Stephanie 44:03 Love it. Uh, well, okay. To switch gears on you yet again, uh,

Matt 44:07 and really, we're just flipping the script

Stephanie 44:07 a little bit on this one, but script a little bit on this one. But do you have advice for companies now who are looking to invest in early career researchers? And I think what I mean by that is, like, are there any common missteps that you see companies make when they're onboarding or developing new talent, especially those that are coming from from, like, a master's program? Are they underutilizing them? I don't know. I'm leaving to you. invest in early career researchers? And I think what I mean by that is, like, are there any common missteps that you see companies make when they're onboarding or developing new talent, especially those that are coming from from, like, a master's program? Are they underutilizing them? I don't know. I'm leaving to you.

Don 44:33 Well, that that's interesting because I I've had lots of conversations with folks in the industry and HR and such. So I I you bring a couple points. I have heard some companies say, hey. We value the fact that this is a master's program. We're gonna bring them in a level higher than maybe our entry level. So they might bring them as a senior analyst versus an analyst.

Stephanie 44:54 Mhmm. Yep.

Don 44:55 Now, again, then we're back to the but have they really had enough time to and experience even that one year, that first year of working through it? My history of the 800 plus grads that I know of is that, yeah, they can hit the ground running. But, um, you know so that's one thing where depending on the training program, they may wanna look and say, yeah. But they have done these projects. Because I've heard students, again, the card's behind me, saying because we did that, I talked about that, and I was able to jump in, and I I did this. We actually did that thing that, you know, I didn't think I'd know how to do, but now I do. At least I've been through it. Maybe using a new tool, different than situation, but I've done it. And so, again, that confidence. Um, so I think just one, just look at the the the skills. Look at your training program. There is no problem with people going through, you know, getting work. I think training is great, standardization. I think I think having a model where they can fit in and learn how to get hands on on things is important. Um, to have some sort of structure of this is what we want, what the job entails, and what we want you to do. I've heard that mentors are a very good thing, whether they're, you know, not managers, but having a mentor that you can go to and say, hey. I don't wanna bother my boss, but, you know

Matt 46:16 Yeah.

Don 46:16 This broke. And what do we do? Or what does this acronym mean?

Stephanie 46:20 I don't know what we're talking about. Yeah.

Don 46:22 Yeah. I don't I I'm literally on a call, and I had no idea what they just said. Right? Um, that that support system, um, is very valuable. Um, you guys are a remote company, which is fascinating to me. Uh, somebody who closed to our offices at GfK and has been sitting in this office since he retired. Um, but I worked in the you know? And and I'm sure you guys did too in offices earlier on. My current there's value to that, but there's also value in the flexibility. I think that having lived through COVID, there was definitely a feeling of folks who were put into peer remote roles into an internship were feeling a bit lost and abandoned.

Stephanie 47:03 That sounds hard. Yeah. invest in early career researchers? And I think what I mean by that is, like, are there any common missteps that you see companies make when they're onboarding or developing new talent, especially those that are coming from from, like, a master's program? Are they underutilizing them? I don't know. I'm leaving to you.

Don 44:33 Well, that that's interesting because I I've had lots of conversations with folks in the industry and HR and such. So I I you bring a couple points. I have heard some companies say, hey. We value the fact that this is a master's program. We're gonna bring them in a level higher than maybe our entry level. So they might bring them as a senior analyst versus an analyst.

Stephanie 44:54 Mhmm. Yep.

Don 44:55 Now, again, then we're back to the but have they really had enough time to and experience even that one year, that first year of working through it? My history of the 800 plus grads that I know of is that, yeah, they can hit the ground running. But, um, you know so that's one thing where depending on the training program, they may wanna look and say, yeah. But they have done these projects. Because I've heard students, again, the card's behind me, saying because we did that, I talked about that, and I was able to jump in, and I I did this. We actually did that thing that, you know, I didn't think I'd know how to do, but now I do. At least I've been through it. Maybe using a new tool, different than situation, but I've done it. And so, again, that confidence. Um, so I think just one, just look at the the the skills. Look at your training program. There is no problem with people going through, you know, getting work. I think training is great, standardization. I think I think having a model where they can fit in and learn how to get hands on on things is important. Um, to have some sort of structure of this is what we want, what the job entails, and what we want you to do. I've heard that mentors are a very good thing, whether they're, you know, not managers, but having a mentor that you can go to and say, hey. I don't wanna bother my boss, but, you know

Matt 46:16 Yeah.

Don 46:16 This broke. And what do we do? Or what does this acronym mean?

Stephanie 46:20 I don't know what we're talking about. Yeah.

Don 46:22 Yeah. I don't I I'm literally on a call, and I had no idea what they just said. Right? Um, that that support system, um, is very valuable. Um, you guys are a remote company, which is fascinating to me. Uh, somebody who closed to our offices at GfK and has been sitting in this office since he retired. Um, but I worked in the you know? And and I'm sure you guys did too in offices earlier on. My current there's value to that, but there's also value in the flexibility. I think that having lived through COVID, there was definitely a feeling of folks who were put into peer remote roles into an internship were feeling a bit lost and abandoned.

Stephanie 47:03 That sounds hard. Yeah. n offices earlier on. My current there's value to that, but there's also value in the flexibility. I think that having lived through COVID, there was definitely a feeling of folks who were put into peer remote roles into an internship were feeling a bit lost and abandoned. That sounds hard. Yeah.

Don 47:04 A lot. And then I heard also the positive, again, going back to these essays I read in the summer, of same situation, but there was structure. There was, you know, let go meet these people remotely and, you know, we're gonna have virtual, you know, whatever connections and meetings and things like that. You're gonna work on a project together throughout. Peep those people were like, this was fine and great, but the ones who were left completely on their own and just felt like, you know, abandoned, that didn't work. So just be very mindful of, you know, how can you integrate these people in your organization and and make sure that they understand they're part of a broader piece of the puzzle and how they connected.

Stephanie 47:48 Yeah. That's great advice.

Matt 47:50 That's such a great point. Um, I I was gonna ask you about mentorship. I know we already talked about it a couple of times in this, uh, conversation. But, um, obviously, I know it's something that's very important to you. I I think, you know, you you, uh, uh, talking about your own accolades is a special kind of torture for someone as humble as yourself. Uh, but you did, uh, recently grab this, um, student engagement excellence award from Michigan State, um, that really reflects the the investment you make, um, in, uh, your students' future. Given everything you know about that and everything you just shared about the importance of mentorship, how would you advise a young, uh, startup researcher to identify a good mentor? How does that person find the right person to to fill that role, which is kinda challenging, especially just as you just pointed out, especially if they're in a remote workplace, but just in general. n offices earlier on. My current there's value to that, but there's also value in the flexibility. I think that having lived through COVID, there was definitely a feeling of folks who were put into peer remote roles into an internship were feeling a bit lost and abandoned.

Stephanie 47:03 That sounds hard. Yeah.

Don 47:04 A lot. And then I heard also the positive, again, going back to these essays I read in the summer, of same situation, but there was structure. There was, you know, let go meet these people remotely and, you know, we're gonna have virtual, you know, whatever connections and meetings and things like that. You're gonna work on a project together throughout. Peep those people were like, this was fine and great, but the ones who were left completely on their own and just felt like, you know, abandoned, that didn't work. So just be very mindful of, you know, how can you integrate these people in your organization and and make sure that they understand they're part of a broader piece of the puzzle and how they connected.

Stephanie 47:48 Yeah. That's great advice.

Matt 47:50 That's such a great point. Um, I I was gonna ask you about mentorship. I know we already talked about it a couple of times in this, uh, conversation. But, um, obviously, I know it's something that's very important to you. I I think, you know, you you, uh, uh, talking about your own accolades is a special kind of torture for someone as humble as yourself. Uh, but you did, uh, recently grab this, um, student engagement excellence award from Michigan State, um, that really reflects the the investment you make, um, in, uh, your students' future. Given everything you know about that and everything you just shared about the importance of mentorship, how would you advise a young, uh, startup researcher to identify a good mentor? How does that person find the right person to to fill that role, which is kinda challenging, especially just as you just pointed out, especially if they're in a remote workplace, but just in general. ared about the importance of mentorship, how would you advise a young, uh, startup researcher to identify a good mentor? How does that person find the right person to to fill that role, which is kinda challenging, especially just as you just pointed out, especially if they're in a remote workplace, but just in general.

Don 48:52 Yeah. I mean, the first thing you have to remember is there isn't just one mentor that you latch on to. Right? You're building a network. So we do talk about, something I brought in, you know, the things like networking and how to build that. Like, those those skills that are practical about your career that you can't even imagine, but it will be there the day you start. Right? Um, when you talk about that, there's a number of different types of mentors. There are people that will go and and people in your network who will cycle in and out. Um, I mean, mentors typically should not be your direct manager. They have their own role and and all of that should be somebody that you're comfortable talking to perhaps at your level or whatever, but it could be somebody who's higher up but in another area. I mean, I think it's just at the end of the day, a great mentor is about that relationship, That the mentor wants to provide advice and connects with that individual and that the individual, the mentee, is also you know, feels that there's a connection and something they can they can get from it. I mean, we connect up I do in my course, all the students with whatever mentors I can get from the industry, including the ones and folks like you yourself. And I tell them, look. Sometimes it's gonna be great, and other times it'll be, like, you'll do your thirty, forty five minutes, and they will you'll both be kinda like, alright. That was great. And nobody's giving signals that they wanna stay in touch, and that's that's fine. That happens with you know, that's just part of life. But most of the time, you know, you will start to make a a connection. You wanna stay in touch with that that person. Um, and so I think it's just, yeah, finding out who who that it isn't about collecting, you know like, I'm trying to visit every major league baseball stadium. And, yes, I would like to get to my 30. I am collecting stadiums. Right? But in this case, it isn't just a numbers game. Like, how many people can I get on LinkedIn? It's about finding the quality and the human connection. So that would be my advice is don't just have one and try to find out which ones resonate with you. And, uh, and and make it two way. Like, as a mentee, you should also you know, you should be thanking your mentor and should be, you know, giving back the how what your progress has been and how they've helped you. And those could don't make sure mentees understand that while the mentor is willing to do it, it's really great to hear the feedback that you got something for out of it. That that what you did had an impact. You know? Send them the card.

Stephanie 51:19 Right. Totally. And then, really, the ultimate payback is paying it forward. Right? ared about the importance of mentorship, how would you advise a young, uh, startup researcher to identify a good mentor? How does that person find the right person to to fill that role, which is kinda challenging, especially just as you just pointed out, especially if they're in a remote workplace, but just in general.

Don 48:52 Yeah. I mean, the first thing you have to remember is there isn't just one mentor that you latch on to. Right? You're building a network. So we do talk about, something I brought in, you know, the things like networking and how to build that. Like, those those skills that are practical about your career that you can't even imagine, but it will be there the day you start. Right? Um, when you talk about that, there's a number of different types of mentors. There are people that will go and and people in your network who will cycle in and out. Um, I mean, mentors typically should not be your direct manager. They have their own role and and all of that should be somebody that you're comfortable talking to perhaps at your level or whatever, but it could be somebody who's higher up but in another area. I mean, I think it's just at the end of the day, a great mentor is about that relationship, That the mentor wants to provide advice and connects with that individual and that the individual, the mentee, is also you know, feels that there's a connection and something they can they can get from it. I mean, we connect up I do in my course, all the students with whatever mentors I can get from the industry, including the ones and folks like you yourself. And I tell them, look. Sometimes it's gonna be great, and other times it'll be, like, you'll do your thirty, forty five minutes, and they will you'll both be kinda like, alright. That was great. And nobody's giving signals that they wanna stay in touch, and that's that's fine. That happens with you know, that's just part of life. But most of the time, you know, you will start to make a a connection. You wanna stay in touch with that that person. Um, and so I think it's just, yeah, finding out who who that it isn't about collecting, you know like, I'm trying to visit every major league baseball stadium. And, yes, I would like to get to my 30. I am collecting stadiums. Right? But in this case, it isn't just a numbers game. Like, how many people can I get on LinkedIn? It's about finding the quality and the human connection. So that would be my advice is don't just have one and try to find out which ones resonate with you. And, uh, and and make it two way. Like, as a mentee, you should also you know, you should be thanking your mentor and should be, you know, giving back the how what your progress has been and how they've helped you. And those could don't make sure mentees understand that while the mentor is willing to do it, it's really great to hear the feedback that you got something for out of it. That that what you did had an impact. You know? Send them the card.

Stephanie 51:19 Right. Totally. And then, really, the ultimate payback is paying it forward. Right? e sure mentees understand that while the mentor is willing to do it, it's really great to hear the feedback that you got something for out of it. That that what you did had an impact. You know? Send them the card. Right. Totally. And then, really, the ultimate payback is paying it forward. Right?

Don 51:23 Oh, absolutely. And I love it when they raise their hand and then we hear about the, you know, the food chain and how these things have been passed on. That's that's

Stephanie 51:33 absolutely wonderful. Super cool. Well, I think we're honestly at our closing questions that we ask. Uh, actually, yours are a little bit tailored. They're gonna cut everything I'm saying right now, Don, so don't worry. But, um, just chatting it up. Um, okay. But these are our closing questions. So Matt and I each have one. Um, looking ahead, how do you see the market research talent pipeline evolving over the next five to ten years? And I think, really, what I'm curious about is, do you think an MSMR degree will continue to be as desirable as it is now? Will, you know, research become managed through other functions like brand managers or product managers? And as that happens and if, you know, insights stops being a core function of its own, does that change the way that we're training? And do you even think that's gonna happen?

Don 52:27 Wow. There's definitely a lot to unpack there. A lot. Yeah. I mean, it it it's funny. At GfK, I remember having this conversation with one of our board members, uh, over some pizza in Nuremberg. And it was about the time that we were looking to divest off, right, our syndicated business or keep our syndicated business and divest off the other portions. And a lot of it ended up going to our friends at Ipsos. And my point was, you know, great that you wanna have all this technology and automation to help clients mine our syndicated data faster than anyone else. But the end of the day, it's still about humans.

Matt 53:08 I I e sure mentees understand that while the mentor is willing to do it, it's really great to hear the feedback that you got something for out of it. That that what you did had an impact. You know? Send them the card.

Stephanie 51:19 Right. Totally. And then, really, the ultimate payback is paying it forward. Right?

Don 51:23 Oh, absolutely. And I love it when they raise their hand and then we hear about the, you know, the food chain and how these things have been passed on. That's that's

Stephanie 51:33 absolutely wonderful. Super cool. Well, I think we're honestly at our closing questions that we ask. Uh, actually, yours are a little bit tailored. They're gonna cut everything I'm saying right now, Don, so don't worry. But, um, just chatting it up. Um, okay. But these are our closing questions. So Matt and I each have one. Um, looking ahead, how do you see the market research talent pipeline evolving over the next five to ten years? And I think, really, what I'm curious about is, do you think an MSMR degree will continue to be as desirable as it is now? Will, you know, research become managed through other functions like brand managers or product managers? And as that happens and if, you know, insights stops being a core function of its own, does that change the way that we're training? And do you even think that's gonna happen?

Don 52:27 Wow. There's definitely a lot to unpack there. A lot. Yeah. I mean, it it it's funny. At GfK, I remember having this conversation with one of our board members, uh, over some pizza in Nuremberg. And it was about the time that we were looking to divest off, right, our syndicated business or keep our syndicated business and divest off the other portions. And a lot of it ended up going to our friends at Ipsos. And my point was, you know, great that you wanna have all this technology and automation to help clients mine our syndicated data faster than anyone else. But the end of the day, it's still about humans.

Matt 53:08 I I ess and divest off the other portions. And a lot of it ended up going to our friends at Ipsos. And my point was, you know, great that you wanna have all this technology and automation to help clients mine our syndicated data faster than anyone else. But the end of the day, it's still about humans. I I

Don 53:08 don't care how fast you do or whatever. You've gotta have people who know the industry that they trust, can interpret the data, and that doesn't change. So to answer your question about how is the industry gonna evolve, and is it gonna move organizationally, and do we need to change the way we prepare our students? I mean, I think we're on the right path of of doing that. We monitor our curriculum. We try to give them a solid foundation of real world plus, you know, the fundamental aspects of research. As you said, they'd still need to know what a good questionnaire looks like. That doesn't change even if AI could write one, because how can they critique it if they don't know that. So, yeah, I mean, the story hasn't changed since marketing research, you know, started is there's always gonna be new technology. There's always gonna be organizational shifts and priorities of where it sits and all that. But at the end of the day, it's having those soft skills and the ability to manage whatever new technology that will make you successful. So I yeah. I think I think the degree will still be valuable if we do our job right because we will have prepared them for what is coming and give them that solid foundation.

Stephanie 54:25 Yeah. Makes a lot of sense.

Matt 54:27 So the foundation will still be critical. The education will still be critical. Researchers will still be critical. Uh, what then let me let me back up. We'll cut this. Because I have a normal I have this normal closing question that I ask, and, honestly, I don't particularly care for it all that much. Well, then But, uh, I'm trying to think, like, how to how to exactly spin this because it's like looking to your crystal ball and tell us, you know, what changes you see coming to the market research industry overall over the next five to ten years. It's like, we can talk about AI. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. ess and divest off the other portions. And a lot of it ended up going to our friends at Ipsos. And my point was, you know, great that you wanna have all this technology and automation to help clients mine our syndicated data faster than anyone else. But the end of the day, it's still about humans. I I

Don 53:08 don't care how fast you do or whatever. You've gotta have people who know the industry that they trust, can interpret the data, and that doesn't change. So to answer your question about how is the industry gonna evolve, and is it gonna move organizationally, and do we need to change the way we prepare our students? I mean, I think we're on the right path of of doing that. We monitor our curriculum. We try to give them a solid foundation of real world plus, you know, the fundamental aspects of research. As you said, they'd still need to know what a good questionnaire looks like. That doesn't change even if AI could write one, because how can they critique it if they don't know that. So, yeah, I mean, the story hasn't changed since marketing research, you know, started is there's always gonna be new technology. There's always gonna be organizational shifts and priorities of where it sits and all that. But at the end of the day, it's having those soft skills and the ability to manage whatever new technology that will make you successful. So I yeah. I think I think the degree will still be valuable if we do our job right because we will have prepared them for what is coming and give them that solid foundation.

Stephanie 54:25 Yeah. Makes a lot of sense.

Matt 54:27 So the foundation will still be critical. The education will still be critical. Researchers will still be critical. Uh, what then let me let me back up. We'll cut this. Because I have a normal I have this normal closing question that I ask, and, honestly, I don't particularly care for it all that much. Well, then But, uh, I'm trying to think, like, how to how to exactly spin this because it's like looking to your crystal ball and tell us, you know, what changes you see coming to the market research industry overall over the next five to ten years. It's like, we can talk about AI. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. ch. Well, then But, uh, I'm trying to think, like, how to how to exactly spin this because it's like looking to your crystal ball and tell us, you know, what changes you see coming to the market research industry overall over the next five to ten years. It's like, we can talk about AI. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

Don 55:12 Yeah. I I mean, to be honest, since we're just talking here, that like, Michael Burton would give you a very industry research focused answer on that about, you know, automation and the fact that, in fact, even the people we're looking for to recruit into the program, we typically recruit marketing majors, right, and all that. And there are other roles that are about, to your point about client management, Stephanie, that are, you know, about client success managers and things like that. So there probably are other aspects that we could keep layering on to this researcher insights title, but I'd still argue that fundamentally, it goes back to those soft skills. And Yeah. Can you analyze data? Can you think through problems? And can you communicate effectively with other humans? Like, that that isn't going to change. And so no matter what is coming, because who knew, you know, that AI would be ready now and here it is, and it's gonna continue to evolve, you still need to be able to navigate that in a in a effective way.

Matt 56:26 Yeah. What, um, I know what I wanna ask. If there's one course you could add to your program today that you think would really supercharge graduates for what's coming over the next five to ten years? What would that one course be?

Don 56:45 How to navigate your first year in the job. Something like that.

Stephanie 56:51 Love that. Yes.

Don 56:52 You know, just something that prepares them for the situations. I can imagine it just we even done this in the the seminar. I brought in guest speakers. Like, here's a scenario. Your coworker comes to you with this problem, and, like, what would you do? Like, we deal with parts of that in some of the practical applications in all of our courses with real case studies or city, but there's nothing that prepares you for the unknown other than than working through it. Could work on those soft skills and a lot of the training that is done on the job, how to be a better storyteller, how to manage conflicts, how to communicate better with, like, those things, that would be great if we could spend more time in in that area. Um, there's never gonna be enough time to to do that. But that's the only other thing. Because at the end of the day, it's just, like I said, practice. I didn't say another group project or capstone because that has limited value in doing it once, but it's all this other coaching and experience that is would be wonderful. I don't know if it can happen. I know it's gonna happen on the job. But, you know, that that's the thing that could help with that transition a little bit more.

Stephanie 58:08 One thing we didn't get to ask you, and I maybe we could just tack it on now because if you have a couple minutes, I would love

Matt 58:14 to get ch. Well, then But, uh, I'm trying to think, like, how to how to exactly spin this because it's like looking to your crystal ball and tell us, you know, what changes you see coming to the market research industry overall over the next five to ten years. It's like, we can talk about AI. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

Don 55:12 Yeah. I I mean, to be honest, since we're just talking here, that like, Michael Burton would give you a very industry research focused answer on that about, you know, automation and the fact that, in fact, even the people we're looking for to recruit into the program, we typically recruit marketing majors, right, and all that. And there are other roles that are about, to your point about client management, Stephanie, that are, you know, about client success managers and things like that. So there probably are other aspects that we could keep layering on to this researcher insights title, but I'd still argue that fundamentally, it goes back to those soft skills. And Yeah. Can you analyze data? Can you think through problems? And can you communicate effectively with other humans? Like, that that isn't going to change. And so no matter what is coming, because who knew, you know, that AI would be ready now and here it is, and it's gonna continue to evolve, you still need to be able to navigate that in a in a effective way.

Matt 56:26 Yeah. What, um, I know what I wanna ask. If there's one course you could add to your program today that you think would really supercharge graduates for what's coming over the next five to ten years? What would that one course be?

Don 56:45 How to navigate your first year in the job. Something like that.

Stephanie 56:51 Love that. Yes.

Don 56:52 You know, just something that prepares them for the situations. I can imagine it just we even done this in the the seminar. I brought in guest speakers. Like, here's a scenario. Your coworker comes to you with this problem, and, like, what would you do? Like, we deal with parts of that in some of the practical applications in all of our courses with real case studies or city, but there's nothing that prepares you for the unknown other than than working through it. Could work on those soft skills and a lot of the training that is done on the job, how to be a better storyteller, how to manage conflicts, how to communicate better with, like, those things, that would be great if we could spend more time in in that area. Um, there's never gonna be enough time to to do that. But that's the only other thing. Because at the end of the day, it's just, like I said, practice. I didn't say another group project or capstone because that has limited value in doing it once, but it's all this other coaching and experience that is would be wonderful. I don't know if it can happen. I know it's gonna happen on the job. But, you know, that that's the thing that could help with that transition a little bit more.

Stephanie 58:08 One thing we didn't get to ask you, and I maybe we could just tack it on now because if you have a couple minutes, I would love

Matt 58:14 to get it can happen. I know it's gonna happen on the job. But, you know, that that's the thing that could help with that transition a little bit more.

Stephanie 58:08 One thing we didn't get to ask you, and I maybe we could just tack it on now because if you have a couple minutes, I would love

Matt 58:14 to get

Stephanie 58:14 your take on this. Um, and something you said a few minutes ago reminded me. But I think that, you know, historically, I have thought of an MSMR degree really setting someone up to be somebody who's, you know, working either on the client side or on the supplier side, but doing executing market research projects or consuming them, you know, and managing them on the client side to, you know, make recommendations that are gonna have a business impact. But my point is really in the business of insights, uh, very directly. But I feel like and I think especially because I work at a platform now and an an agile insights platform that does have an agency within it, but we are a platform, you know, I think for first and foremost. And there are all these other roles that require and really benefit from having somebody as a a strong researcher in that role. And it is things like a customer success. You mentioned it, and I just was like, oh, yeah. Oh, because we love to hire people with the research background into a customer success role. And it looks a lot different. You're not always executing, but you are consulting. You are guiding people along a journey of of doing that themselves. And I feel like there are adjacent roles in the sales world also where, you know, being a sales consultant, um, sales engineering, those kinds of things. Do you ever talk like, does that come up in the context of the the academic journey, just the the variety of jobs that this actually this degree could is really well suited for?

Don 59:45 Absolutely. I mean, it's for me personally, it starts the day that I meet them and talk about my own background is I was somebody who did all these other things and got exposed to research, but you can go the other way.

Matt 59:57 And

Don 59:57 people do go the other way, and I point out grads who were in insights at Wolverine worldwide who are now on the brand management team or running in that. I'd love we just talked to a brand manager at Coke who's working on some of the, um, you know, flavored water beverages.

Matt 1:00:14 Um, you

Don 1:00:14 know, so this the idea of it going back to the, you know, can you work with data? Can you understand consumers? Do you know how to summarize, interpret, and talk about what this means for the business? That's still a valuable skill in any of those worlds.

Stephanie 1:00:34 Truly it can happen. I know it's gonna happen on the job. But, you know, that that's the thing that could help with that transition a little bit more. One thing we didn't get to ask you, and I maybe we could just tack it on now because if you have a couple minutes, I would love

Matt 58:14 to get

Stephanie 58:14 your take on this. Um, and something you said a few minutes ago reminded me. But I think that, you know, historically, I have thought of an MSMR degree really setting someone up to be somebody who's, you know, working either on the client side or on the supplier side, but doing executing market research projects or consuming them, you know, and managing them on the client side to, you know, make recommendations that are gonna have a business impact. But my point is really in the business of insights, uh, very directly. But I feel like and I think especially because I work at a platform now and an an agile insights platform that does have an agency within it, but we are a platform, you know, I think for first and foremost. And there are all these other roles that require and really benefit from having somebody as a a strong researcher in that role. And it is things like a customer success. You mentioned it, and I just was like, oh, yeah. Oh, because we love to hire people with the research background into a customer success role. And it looks a lot different. You're not always executing, but you are consulting. You are guiding people along a journey of of doing that themselves. And I feel like there are adjacent roles in the sales world also where, you know, being a sales consultant, um, sales engineering, those kinds of things. Do you ever talk like, does that come up in the context of the the academic journey, just the the variety of jobs that this actually this degree could is really well suited for?

Don 59:45 Absolutely. I mean, it's for me personally, it starts the day that I meet them and talk about my own background is I was somebody who did all these other things and got exposed to research, but you can go the other way.

Matt 59:57 And

Don 59:57 people do go the other way, and I point out grads who were in insights at Wolverine worldwide who are now on the brand management team or running in that. I'd love we just talked to a brand manager at Coke who's working on some of the, um, you know, flavored water beverages.

Matt 1:00:14 Um, you

Don 1:00:14 know, so this the idea of it going back to the, you know, can you work with data? Can you understand consumers? Do you know how to summarize, interpret, and talk about what this means for the business? That's still a valuable skill in any of those worlds.

Stephanie 1:00:34 Truly 14] Matt: Um, you

Don 1:00:14 know, so this the idea of it going back to the, you know, can you work with data? Can you understand consumers? Do you know how to summarize, interpret, and talk about what this means for the business? That's still a valuable skill in any of those worlds.

Stephanie 1:00:34 Truly

Don 1:00:34 talking to a client or an internal stakeholder, design if you're at GM, you know, you have to be able to communicate. I so this type of degree can set you up for those kind of movements, and and we've we've seen that in our grads. Um, and I've seen it in my own experience that, you know, don't think of it as, like, oh my gosh. I'm going into research, and I have to stay there. Just like I was an industrial engineer and said, you know what? Mhmm. I think I wanna pivot, and, like, nobody came back from U of M and said, hey. Give me your degree

Matt 1:01:18 back. That's a great I I think I I think that's, uh, that's a great answer. Um, I think we did it. I think we hit all the questions. Was there anything else stuff that we missed? I don't know. We jumped around in the discussion guide a little bit. But

Don 1:01:30 Oh, we both are. I mean, I love the conversation. So

Matt 1:01:32 Oh, no. It was fantastic. No. Great.

Don 1:01:34 I think

Matt 1:01:35 we just need to do our our, um, Yeah.

Stephanie 1:01:37 We should thank Don for coming on our podcast.

Matt 1:01:39 Yes. Yes. Okay. We'll we'll we'll do our close. But then just as a reminder, gotta stay on after we say goodbye because the the recording will process. So then, um,

Don 1:01:48 yeah. One thing since this is in my intro, you said I worked in GM at 13. I worked there seventeen and a half.

Matt 1:01:57 I said so I said let me go to it. Because I hopefully, I read it so then I'll actually know what I

Don 1:02:02 was You did read it.

Matt 1:02:04 Don had a thirteen year, ten year at GfK. Right?

Don 1:02:07 No. Both. Actually, it's funny. I I was 17 at each. I literally

Matt 1:02:14 That's your do you get the 17 itch?

Don 1:02:17 Yeah. Exactly. And then I'm like, okay. I'm done. Um, so yeah. So that that was my

Stephanie 1:02:23 You should rerecord that.

Matt 1:02:24 That's an easy one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can I can easily just rerecord that? I'll do it right now, actually. I'll just

Don 1:02:29 do it right now then. Okay.

Matt 1:02:30 And then we'll do our close. Does that sound good? The editors are gonna love us on this one, guys. Yeah. We're gonna

Stephanie 1:02:34 be watching this one. A little work to do today. It's good.

Matt 1:02:37 Alright. Um, yeah. I lost it. There we go. Alright. Let me pull it up here. Alright. 17 and a half.

Stephanie 1:02:45 To both. 14] Matt: Um, you

Don 1:00:14 know, so this the idea of it going back to the, you know, can you work with data? Can you understand consumers? Do you know how to summarize, interpret, and talk about what this means for the business? That's still a valuable skill in any of those worlds.

Stephanie 1:00:34 Truly

Don 1:00:34 talking to a client or an internal stakeholder, design if you're at GM, you know, you have to be able to communicate. I so this type of degree can set you up for those kind of movements, and and we've we've seen that in our grads. Um, and I've seen it in my own experience that, you know, don't think of it as, like, oh my gosh. I'm going into research, and I have to stay there. Just like I was an industrial engineer and said, you know what? Mhmm. I think I wanna pivot, and, like, nobody came back from U of M and said, hey. Give me your degree

Matt 1:01:18 back. That's a great I I think I I think that's, uh, that's a great answer. Um, I think we did it. I think we hit all the questions. Was there anything else stuff that we missed? I don't know. We jumped around in the discussion guide a little bit. But

Don 1:01:30 Oh, we both are. I mean, I love the conversation. So

Matt 1:01:32 Oh, no. It was fantastic. No. Great.

Don 1:01:34 I think

Matt 1:01:35 we just need to do our our, um, Yeah.

Stephanie 1:01:37 We should thank Don for coming on our podcast.

Matt 1:01:39 Yes. Yes. Okay. We'll we'll we'll do our close. But then just as a reminder, gotta stay on after we say goodbye because the the recording will process. So then, um,

Don 1:01:48 yeah. One thing since this is in my intro, you said I worked in GM at 13. I worked there seventeen and a half.

Matt 1:01:57 I said so I said let me go to it. Because I hopefully, I read it so then I'll actually know what I

Don 1:02:02 was You did read it.

Matt 1:02:04 Don had a thirteen year, ten year at GfK. Right?

Don 1:02:07 No. Both. Actually, it's funny. I I was 17 at each. I literally

Matt 1:02:14 That's your do you get the 17 itch?

Don 1:02:17 Yeah. Exactly. And then I'm like, okay. I'm done. Um, so yeah. So that that was my

Stephanie 1:02:23 You should rerecord that.

Matt 1:02:24 That's an easy one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can I can easily just rerecord that? I'll do it right now, actually. I'll just

Don 1:02:29 do it right now then. Okay.

Matt 1:02:30 And then we'll do our close. Does that sound good? The editors are gonna love us on this one, guys. Yeah. We're gonna

Stephanie 1:02:34 be watching this one. A little work to do today. It's good.

Matt 1:02:37 Alright. Um, yeah. I lost it. There we go. Alright. Let me pull it up here. Alright. 17 and a half.

Stephanie 1:02:45 To both. oes that sound good? The editors are gonna love us on this one, guys. Yeah. We're gonna be watching this one. A little work to do today. It's good.

Matt 1:02:37 Alright. Um, yeah. I lost it. There we go. Alright. Let me pull it up here. Alright. 17 and a half.

Stephanie 1:02:45 To both.

Matt 1:02:46 To both. Okay. Before his academic career, Don had a seventeen plus year tenure at GfK, now part of Nielsen, where he had senior global leadership roles in training and career development. He also spent, uh, just over seventeen years on the client side at General Motors. Today, Don will share how his industry expertise and academic approach are helping to mold the future of market research talent.

Don 1:03:11 K. Didn't talk about the fact that I ran automotive, but that's okay.

Matt 1:03:15 You you what? What? What? What do you want me to say? Just tell me. Why why don't you just tell me what you want me to say?

Don 1:03:22 So my main job at GfK was running the automotive practice. I just did that training thing at the end because I got recruited over to HR.

Matt 1:03:30 Okay. Let me do this.

Don 1:03:31 So it was global weed for automotive for and we're in The US. That that may just sound more that's more my you know?

Matt 1:03:40 I'm gonna write it right now. Yeah.

Stephanie 1:03:41 You were very in the automotive space during

Matt 1:03:44 I did a car guy.

Don 1:03:45 Yeah. Right? At the end of my career, I got to do something fun. Yeah. But not that automotive isn't fun. It was just different. Never thought I'd do it. Alright.

Matt 1:03:53 Let's hit this. Yeah. Alright.

Stephanie 1:03:55 So Get it together, Mahan.

Matt 1:03:57 It wasn't in the script, folks. That's all I'm gonna say.

Don 1:04:01 I I didn't give you the script, so you wrote that.

Stephanie 1:04:04 Fair point.

Matt 1:04:05 Alright. Before his academic career, Don had a seventeen plus year tenure as global lead of the automotive team at GfK, now part of Nielsen, where he held, uh, senior global leadership roles in training and career development as well. Uh, he also spent seventeen plus years on the client side at General Motors. Today, Don will share how his industry expertise and academic approach are helping to mold the future of market research talent.

Don 1:04:36 Okay. Is

Matt 1:04:37 that better?

Don 1:04:38 I can check that box. Yeah. I I feel like I still have You know?

Matt 1:04:42 I feel like I

Don 1:04:43 out there that I only worked thirteen years.

Matt 1:04:44 No.

Stephanie 1:04:45 You let's value accuracy. Right?

Don 1:04:47 Yeah. Like, four and a half years of cashing out my pension back, then I don't have that.

Matt 1:04:53 But they'll do it. I I they'll do that at General Motors. They'll hear this. They're like, hey. Wait a minute. We gotta go take a look here. Alright. We gotta do our close. Sorry. Alright.

Don 1:05:03 You're close. You're good. oes that sound good? The editors are gonna love us on this one, guys. Yeah. We're gonna

Stephanie 1:02:34 be watching this one. A little work to do today. It's good.

Matt 1:02:37 Alright. Um, yeah. I lost it. There we go. Alright. Let me pull it up here. Alright. 17 and a half.

Stephanie 1:02:45 To both.

Matt 1:02:46 To both. Okay. Before his academic career, Don had a seventeen plus year tenure at GfK, now part of Nielsen, where he had senior global leadership roles in training and career development. He also spent, uh, just over seventeen years on the client side at General Motors. Today, Don will share how his industry expertise and academic approach are helping to mold the future of market research talent.

Don 1:03:11 K. Didn't talk about the fact that I ran automotive, but that's okay.

Matt 1:03:15 You you what? What? What? What do you want me to say? Just tell me. Why why don't you just tell me what you want me to say?

Don 1:03:22 So my main job at GfK was running the automotive practice. I just did that training thing at the end because I got recruited over to HR.

Matt 1:03:30 Okay. Let me do this.

Don 1:03:31 So it was global weed for automotive for and we're in The US. That that may just sound more that's more my you know?

Matt 1:03:40 I'm gonna write it right now. Yeah.

Stephanie 1:03:41 You were very in the automotive space during

Matt 1:03:44 I did a car guy.

Don 1:03:45 Yeah. Right? At the end of my career, I got to do something fun. Yeah. But not that automotive isn't fun. It was just different. Never thought I'd do it. Alright.

Matt 1:03:53 Let's hit this. Yeah. Alright.

Stephanie 1:03:55 So Get it together, Mahan.

Matt 1:03:57 It wasn't in the script, folks. That's all I'm gonna say.

Don 1:04:01 I I didn't give you the script, so you wrote that.

Stephanie 1:04:04 Fair point.

Matt 1:04:05 Alright. Before his academic career, Don had a seventeen plus year tenure as global lead of the automotive team at GfK, now part of Nielsen, where he held, uh, senior global leadership roles in training and career development as well. Uh, he also spent seventeen plus years on the client side at General Motors. Today, Don will share how his industry expertise and academic approach are helping to mold the future of market research talent.

Don 1:04:36 Okay. Is

Matt 1:04:37 that better?

Don 1:04:38 I can check that box. Yeah. I I feel like I still have You know?

Matt 1:04:42 I feel like I

Don 1:04:43 out there that I only worked thirteen years.

Matt 1:04:44 No.

Stephanie 1:04:45 You let's value accuracy. Right?

Don 1:04:47 Yeah. Like, four and a half years of cashing out my pension back, then I don't have that.

Matt 1:04:53 But they'll do it. I I they'll do that at General Motors. They'll hear this. They're like, hey. Wait a minute. We gotta go take a look here. Alright. We gotta do our close. Sorry. Alright.

Don 1:05:03 You're close. You're good. a half years of cashing out my pension back, then I don't have that.

Matt 1:04:53 But they'll do it. I I they'll do that at General Motors. They'll hear this. They're like, hey. Wait a minute. We gotta go take a look here. Alright. We gotta do our close. Sorry. Alright.

Don 1:05:03 You're close. You're good.

Matt 1:05:17 Uh, yes. I do, Molly, but I don't know if you can pass producer the producer role or if you'll need to. I if if you leave, it might close the recording. I'm not sure.

Stephanie 1:05:30 We're wrapping it up. Well, let's do it right now.

Matt 1:05:32 We'll we'll we'll

Don 1:05:33 we'll we'll quick.

Matt 1:05:35 Stephanie, are you gonna close this out?

Stephanie 1:05:37 Um, yes. I can do that. Okay. Here I go. Don, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been an absolutely illuminating conversation, and we appreciate you joining us.

Don 1:05:50 Thank you very much for having me. I enjoyed it as well.

Matt 1:05:55 Alright. So we'll close it out right there. Um, looks like Tiffany is also on, so she might have producer rights. So I

Don 1:06:03 think Molly's still here.

Matt 1:06:05 We are.

Stephanie 1:06:05 We're definitely recording. Hey, guys. Sorry. I was jumping a half years of cashing out my pension back, then I don't have that.

Matt 1:04:53 But they'll do it. I I they'll do that at General Motors. They'll hear this. They're like, hey. Wait a minute. We gotta go take a look here. Alright. We gotta do our close. Sorry. Alright.

Don 1:05:03 You're close. You're good.

Matt 1:05:17 Uh, yes. I do, Molly, but I don't know if you can pass producer the producer role or if you'll need to. I if if you leave, it might close the recording. I'm not sure.

Stephanie 1:05:30 We're wrapping it up. Well, let's do it right now.

Matt 1:05:32 We'll we'll we'll

Don 1:05:33 we'll we'll quick.

Matt 1:05:35 Stephanie, are you gonna close this out?

Stephanie 1:05:37 Um, yes. I can do that. Okay. Here I go. Don, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been an absolutely illuminating conversation, and we appreciate you joining us.

Don 1:05:50 Thank you very much for having me. I enjoyed it as well.

Matt 1:05:55 Alright. So we'll close it out right there. Um, looks like Tiffany is also on, so she might have producer rights. So I

Don 1:06:03 think Molly's still here.

Matt 1:06:05 We are.

Stephanie 1:06:05 We're definitely recording. Hey, guys. Sorry. I was jumping