Ethnography in Action: How Lindsey Goodman Turns Observation Into Innovation

Transcript

Stephanie 0:02 Today on the Curiosity Current, we're joined by Lindsay Goodman, a consumer insights leader with over fifteen years of experience at top global brands like Nike and Wolverine worldwide.

Matt 0:15 Lindsay currently leads the consumer insights and market intelligence efforts at Wolverine worldwide where she's driving innovation and product development for some of the most well known brands in footwear and apparel, including Merrell. Oh, no. I don't know how to pronounce this.

Stephanie 0:30 What's Saucony? Well, Saucony.

Matt 0:32 I gotta redo it. I was

Lindsey 0:33 Saucony. Yeah.

Matt 0:35 Like, when we say,

Lindsey 0:36 like, point to your foot, Saucony. Saucony.

Matt 0:40 I can't picture this one. I

Stephanie 0:42 My dad had to drill that one into my brain when I was a kid, Matt. I was like, it's Sawsoni, dad. And he was like, no. It's not.

Lindsey 0:48 So Sock a knee. Get a lot of, like, sacones even here. Even though we're based in in Boston, there's still a lot of people that don't know how to pronounce it. I'm so sorry.

Matt 0:58 Alright. From the top, I'll go. Steph, I think your part is good. I'll just restart. Lindsay currently leads the consumer insights and market intelligence efforts at Wolverine worldwide, where she's driving innovation and product development for some of the most well known brands in footwear and apparel, including Merrell, Saucony, and Chaco. Her work blends deep ethnographic research with cutting edge digital tools, helping brands stay ahead of the curve by truly understanding what consumers want and

Lindsey 1:24 need. You missed it again.

Stephanie 1:26 So it's because it's Saucony. Saucony. The in the the emphasis is on the first syllable, so not Saucony.

Matt 1:35 Saucony. Like like

Lindsey 1:36 We were saying people often miss missay it loud.

Stephanie 1:39 That was bad. Sorry. I gave you another sock.

Lindsey 1:43 Sockony. Sockony.

Matt 1:46 Alright. Third time's the charm.

Stephanie 1:49 Sorry. This is funny. Third time's the charm. Here we go.

Matt 1:53 Lindsay currently leads the consumer insights and market intelligence efforts at Wolverine worldwide, where she's driving innovation and product development for some of the most well known brands in footwear and apparel, including Merrell, Saucony, and Chaco. Her work runs deep ethnographic research with cutting edge digital tools, helping brands stay ahead of the curve by truly understanding what consumers want and need.

Stephanie 2:15 We are gonna be diving into how ethnography can uncover hidden insights, why democratizing consumer data is more important than ever, and finally, how Lindsay's approach is helping brands like Wolverine worldwide innovate and grow in a rapidly changing market. Lindsay, welcome to the Curiosity Current.

Lindsey 2:34 Thank you so much. Uh, good afternoon, or maybe it's good morning. I don't know actually where you guys are based, but happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie 2:42 We're happy to have you. Today on the Curiosity Current, we're joined by Lindsay Goodman, a consumer insights leader with over fifteen years of experience at top global brands like Nike and Wolverine worldwide.

Stephanie 0:30 What's Saucony? Well, Saucony.

Matt 0:32 I gotta redo it. I was

Lindsey 0:33 Saucony. Yeah.

Matt 0:35 Like, when we say,

Lindsey 0:36 like, point to your foot, Saucony. Saucony.

Matt 0:40 I can't picture this one. I

Stephanie 0:42 My dad had to drill that one into my brain when I was a kid, Matt. I was like, it's Sawsoni, dad. And he was like, no. It's not.

Lindsey 0:48 So Sock a knee. Get a lot of, like, sacones even here. Even though we're based in in Boston, there's still a lot of people that don't know how to pronounce it. I'm so sorry.

Lindsey 1:24 need. You missed it again.

Stephanie 1:26 So it's because it's Saucony. Saucony. The in the the emphasis is on the first syllable, so not Saucony.

Matt 1:35 Saucony. Like like

Lindsey 1:36 We were saying people often miss missay it loud.

Stephanie 1:39 That was bad. Sorry. I gave you another sock.

Lindsey 1:43 Sockony. Sockony.

Matt 1:46 Alright. Third time's the charm.

Stephanie 1:49 Sorry. This is funny. Third time's the charm. Here we go.

Lindsey 2:34 Thank you so much. Uh, good afternoon, or maybe it's good morning. I don't know actually where you guys are based, but happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie 2:42 We're happy to have you. e innovate and grow in a rapidly changing market. Lindsay, welcome to the Curiosity Current.

Lindsey 2:34 Thank you so much. Uh, good afternoon, or maybe it's good morning. I don't know actually where you guys are based, but happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie 2:42 We're happy to have you.

Matt 2:43 Very happy to have you. So you've spent years leading consumer insights teams at major brands, uh, Nike, Wolverine worldwide, house of major brands. Ethnography really seems to be a core part of your approach. What initially sparked your interest in ethnography?

Lindsey 3:01 Yeah. It's a great question. Uh, in my humble opinion, I think it's the most interesting and honestly the most fun part of the consumer insights playbook. I sure, you know, every party loves a a good choice based conjoined, but, you know, there's really nothing more impactful or or more human than just talking to consumers in their natural habitat. It's it's kinda where everything clicks. You're no longer just looking at numbers. You're watching behavior. You're hearing emotions. You're seeing the environment that, um, influences decisions. And so it really turns data into dimension, I think. And Yeah. I think what first drew me to ethnography was that sense of immersion. I've always been, uh, curious, maybe annoyingly so, um, about the why behind behaviors. And ethnography doesn't just help you observe, it it helps you feel what the consumer feels. It really creates empathy, not just insight. And so over the past year, I've done a lot of work helping our stakeholders across the organization understand what an insight actually is and how ethnography is kind of that secret door to unlock it. Um, I kinda think of it as a, like, a triangle model, if you will. So, like, the base is, like, data points. Right? It's raw data. So let's say 60% of consumers wear sneakers to hike. That's a data point. It's interesting, but it's just a data point. If you go up a level, you've got findings, right? Like men are more likely to wear hiking boots than women. Okay, that's an interesting trend in the data, but the top of the triangle, that's where the insight lives. So, um, in this example I'm using, you know, we did a project with Meryl and in talking to female hikers, we discovered that comfort and safety were super important to them, but shopping for technical hiking boots was really intimidating and it felt overwhelming and they weren't sure that they saw themselves represented. So they defaulted to what was already in their closet. That's an insight. That's a problem we can actually solve, and that's something I don't think we would have uncovered by just looking at numbers.

Matt 4:57 That makes a lot of sense. You would have had to climb well, just like you alluded to several ladders on, like, you know, the why journey to get there that you just Yeah. Couldn't have done in the traditional research approach.

Lindsey 5:07 Yeah. e innovate and grow in a rapidly changing market. Lindsay, welcome to the Curiosity Current. Thank you so much. Uh, good afternoon, or maybe it's good morning. I don't know actually where you guys are based, but happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie 2:42 We're happy to have you.

Lindsey 5:07 Yeah. ould have uncovered by just looking at numbers.

Lindsey 5:07 Yeah.

Stephanie 5:09 I think it lends itself to, like, the narrative form too, which is so compelling to those of us who receive information. And just to kinda back you up on something where I feel like I'm I'm gonna sound like a mom who's talking about how much cuter other people's children is, which I know you're not supposed to do, but, like, I'm a survey researcher. I'm a quant researcher. I adore it. But, man, I would rather sit around all day and talk about ethnographic research. It is so fun to talk about. So I can only imagine how fun it is to do. Yep. Um, to ask you a little bit of oh, sorry, Matt. Do you wanna say something?

Matt 5:44 Nope. Not worthwhile. Go ahead.

Stephanie 5:47 Um, I was just gonna switch gears to a very silly question that I I can't help but ask. Um, Lindsey, because you have worked with so many of these iconic footwear brands, Converse, Merrell, Saucony, just to name a few, With all these brands under your belts, I have to think you have a pretty, uh, snazzy collection of few shoes, and I'm curious if you might wanna share with us just a unique or memorable pair that you own.

Lindsey 6:15 Yeah. I definitely have more shoes than any one person reasonably needs, um, and somehow I just keep accumulating them. But I'd have to say one of my favorites would be, uh, the Saucony Dunkin' collab that we made for the Boston Marathon a few years back. Two iconic Boston based brands coming together, uh, running, coffee, donuts. It's just like peak Boston energy. Um, these shoes, they were just decked out. They had the iconic Dunkin' pink and orange colors. There were sprinkles on the upper. It had a donut graphic on the heel. Even the shoe box was designed to look like a Dunkin', like a dozen donut box. It was it was awesome, and it's sold out in, like, a couple of hours. I still get people asking me about them and where I got them.

Matt 7:06 So that was not like a insight driven collab at all. That was just a Boston Pride type of moment. ould have uncovered by just looking at numbers. That makes a lot of sense. You would have had to climb well, just like you alluded to several ladders on, like, you know, the why journey to get there that you just Yeah. Couldn't have done in the traditional research approach.

Lindsey 5:07 Yeah.

Matt 5:44 Nope. Not worthwhile. Go ahead.

Matt 7:06 So that was not like a insight driven collab at all. That was just a Boston Pride type of moment. he shoe box was designed to look like a Dunkin', like a dozen donut box. It was it was awesome, and it's sold out in, like, a couple of hours. I still get people asking me about them and where I got them. So that was not like a insight driven collab at all. That was just a Boston Pride type of moment.

Lindsey 7:12 It was a little bit of both, actually. Yeah. Um, I'd say do you wanna hear the story behind it? Yes. Always. So we did, um, an ethnography a few years back with Roadrunners, and we learned I I'm not a runner. And so I, I have this preconception of runners as being like health freaks, uh, green juice drinkers, um, you know, protein shakes, all this stuff. And what we found was that, uh, these consumers were not, um, eating healthy to run better. They were running so that they could eat unhealthy. And I mean, like, these are some of the unhealthiest eaters I've ever seen. They they basically are running for donuts and for beer. And I think what's so funny about this is it didn't matter where we were. We went to San Diego, Toronto, London. Someone seemed to bring up donuts everywhere we went. And so it was both hilarious, but also deeply insightful. And so I think that theme gave us that cultural permission to lean into that fun of the collab, and it really made it you feel playful and authentic, not forced. So yeah.

Matt 8:20 That's super interesting. I that that resonates with me. I definitely run for, uh, the ability to just eat gobs of unhealthy food rather than particular health goals. Yeah. I hear that. I hear that.

Stephanie 8:36 Well, cool. Uh, I guess kinda turning to, you know, why we're really here to talk and and get some insights from you, Lindsey, based on on how you've approached, uh, insights in in the worlds that you work in. Before we get into specifics, um, I wanna start with the basics. And in particular, I wanna talk about this statement that that you talk about, which is democratizing insights through ethnography. I wanna know, like, what does that mean to you, and why is it so important? Yeah. he shoe box was designed to look like a Dunkin', like a dozen donut box. It was it was awesome, and it's sold out in, like, a couple of hours. I still get people asking me about them and where I got them.

Matt 7:06 So that was not like a insight driven collab at all. That was just a Boston Pride type of moment.

Stephanie 8:36 Well, cool. Uh, I guess kinda turning to, you know, why we're really here to talk and and get some insights from you, Lindsey, based on on how you've approached, uh, insights in in the worlds that you work in. Before we get into specifics, um, I wanna start with the basics. And in particular, I wanna talk about this statement that that you talk about, which is democratizing insights through ethnography. I wanna know, like, what does that mean to you, and why is it so important? Yeah. sights in in the worlds that you work in. Before we get into specifics, um, I wanna start with the basics. And in particular, I wanna talk about this statement that that you talk about, which is democratizing insights through ethnography. I wanna know, like, what does that mean to you, and why is it so important? Yeah.

Lindsey 9:05 I I'd say in its simplest form, democratizing insights means making research and data something everyone can use, not just researchers or executives or strategists. Um, it's really about removing that gatekeeping and helping everyone in the organization, whether you're in product or marketing or finance or sales, everyone can connect with the consumer. And I think ethnography is such a powerful way to do that because it doesn't require a background and research to understand it. It's just grounded in human connection. When you see a consumer's lived experience, uh, what frustrates them, what excites them, what their real needs are, you can't unsee that. It just clicks. And suddenly it's not just a research finding in a deck. It's it's a consumer truth that you you feel. And for me, that's what makes it so important right now. You know, I think the companies that win are the ones that are consumer obsessed, and you can't build a consumer centric culture if only a handful of people ever meet their consumer. And so democratizing insights, to me, it's not just a buzzword. It's, it's really a shift in mindset. It's saying, hey, you don't need to be a researcher to care about this stuff. You just need curiosity and access.

Stephanie 10:15 Yeah. That

Matt 10:17 makes a lot of sense. Uh, I'm curious. I'll just say this is, like, one of those things that we'll probably edit out. But I I wanna ask a question that's not in the script. Um, and that is, what is it specifically do you think it is about an ethnograph? What is it specifically about ethnography? Uh, you know, this this sort of intimate social science, if you will, that makes it so powerful, so sticky even in, you know, a a massive corporate insights environment?

Lindsey 10:57 Yeah. I mean, I think it lets you observe people in their element. And it's so it's not about what they say. It's about what they do. It's about what they don't say. It's about how they behave when they think no one's watching and they're not trying to impress anyone. So you're not just hearing from them. You're with them. Um, you're seeing how they lace up a pair of shoes before a run. You're seeing how they shop, uh, the shoe wall at their local run specialty store. You're, um, seeing in real time what's annoying them, what's exciting them. And it's those small moments that I think unlock the biggest insights. I have stakeholders that still to this day will, like, quote somebody, um, that they heard in an ethnography several years ago and talk about how that completely changed how they their job. It's that kind of emotional resonance. It just doesn't come from pie charts or, uh, bar charts or focus group transcripts. It comes from shared experience. sights in in the worlds that you work in. Before we get into specifics, um, I wanna start with the basics. And in particular, I wanna talk about this statement that that you talk about, which is democratizing insights through ethnography. I wanna know, like, what does that mean to you, and why is it so important? Yeah. I I'd say in its simplest form, democratizing insights means making research and data something everyone can use, not just researchers or executives or strategists. Um, it's really about removing that gatekeeping and helping everyone in the organization, whether you're in product or marketing or finance or sales, everyone can connect with the consumer. And I think ethnography is such a powerful way to do that because it doesn't require a background and research to understand it. It's just grounded in human connection. When you see a consumer's lived experience, uh, what frustrates them, what excites them, what their real needs are, you can't unsee that. It just clicks. And suddenly it's not just a research finding in a deck. It's it's a consumer truth that you you feel. And for me, that's what makes it so important right now. You know, I think the companies that win are the ones that are consumer obsessed, and you can't build a consumer centric culture if only a handful of people ever meet their consumer. And so democratizing insights, to me, it's not just a buzzword. It's, it's really a shift in mindset. It's saying, hey, you don't need to be a researcher to care about this stuff. You just need curiosity and access.

Stephanie 10:15 Yeah. That

Matt 11:54 That makes a lot of sense. Uh, so we're gonna be talking about ethnography a lot today. Um, but I do wanna just back up for a second and give you a little bit of space to, uh, talk about where ethnography sits in your larger tool kit, uh, because I know at Wolverine worldwide, you had shared, you know, you have a an interesting framework for exploring insights in a more comprehensive way. So if you could just talk to us a little bit about that and where ethnography plays its particular role.

Lindsey 12:24 Yeah. Sure. Um, you know, here we, uh, you know, I'm glad you asked this question because as much as I love ethnography, it's really only one piece of the puzzle. And so at Wolverine Worldwide, we use a framework we call hindsight, insight, foresight. So think of it as kind of three overlapping lenses that, you know, when used together, give us this full three sixty view of the consumer. So hindsight is all about looking back. You know, what has already happened? This is where our market intelligence team lives. They're analyzing sales data and market share shifts and competitive performance. It's foundational. It's important for us to know where we've been in order to know where we're going. Right?

Stephanie 13:04 Yeah. still to this day will, like, quote somebody, um, that they heard in an ethnography several years ago and talk about how that completely changed how they their job. It's that kind of emotional resonance. It just doesn't come from pie charts or, uh, bar charts or focus group transcripts. It comes from shared experience.

Stephanie 13:04 Yeah. looking back. You know, what has already happened? This is where our market intelligence team lives. They're analyzing sales data and market share shifts and competitive performance. It's foundational. It's important for us to know where we've been in order to know where we're going. Right? Yeah.

Lindsey 13:05 High insight I mean, sorry. Excuse me. Insight is the now. It's it's where we're digging into current consumer behaviors, perceptions, unmet needs, motivations, and ethnography fits squarely here. It's it's a tool we use to understand that human context behind the behavior that we're seeing in the numbers. And then there's foresight, um, which is probably the most interesting but ambiguous of the three. It's about identifying kind of signals, watching cultural shifts, anticipating future consumer behavior. It's not about predicting the future with certainty, but just it's about preparing ourselves for the possibilities that may shape the market as we look to the future. So uh, I can give you a great example of of how these have come together for us. You know, a few years back, our hindsight data showed us that Saucony had really strong equity in trail running higher than you'd expect based on the level of investment we were making. So that was a clue. And then we launched a global trail running ethnography, and we found that trail runners were really burned out on kinda heavy overbuilt shoes. They were craving something that still performed, but felt like they're road running shoes, something that was lighter and simpler and more versatile. And then in foresight, we were starting to see these emerging signals around life becoming more fluid and work and play and travel all blending together and this desire for personalization and kind of multifunctionality in the products that they were buying. And so when you overlap those three, you get this really clear consumer opportunity. And from that, um, we ended up building not one, but two product franchises. One of them was brand new. One of them was a reimagined version of an existing one, and those franchises have gone on to become some of our best performing lines in the trail category. And so it really is that triangulation that, you know, turns insight into action. So ethnography is one part of it, but it's

Matt 15:05 Um, Um, but it it it's almost seems like it's a way to ensure the insights that you find the the findings that you're discussing have historical validity, have contemporary validity, and have, um, longevity

Stephanie 15:23 Yeah.

Matt 15:23 You know, considering all of the things that are going to change in a in an uncertain future. I just I I think that's such a, uh, a great well rounded way to to approach your work, and I I love it. looking back. You know, what has already happened? This is where our market intelligence team lives. They're analyzing sales data and market share shifts and competitive performance. It's foundational. It's important for us to know where we've been in order to know where we're going. Right?

Stephanie 13:04 Yeah.

Stephanie 15:23 Yeah.

Stephanie 15:35 Is is that framework so built out that those three functions talk to like, there's a lot of fluidity across them. Like, you just told that story, and I was so curious. Like, is is that by design? And that comes up, like, when those three when things align across, like, hindsight, insight, and foresight, are you guys quick to see it because you've set up your framework just to be able to see those things, or is it something that still takes a lot of work to triangulate?

Lindsey 16:06 Uh, we are because, uh, the three functions that represent hindsight, insight, and foresight live under me. So we're all on the same team, and so we're constantly talking to each other. And sometimes it doesn't work out as perfectly as the example I just shared, but at least the lines of communication are always open across my team. We're always talking to each other about what we're seeing, what we're reading, you know, what we're doing, what is happening in the market, what articles are coming out about our industry right now. We're always talking to each other and that, you know, having that forum to share really just it it allows these ideas to come together and for us to catch these signals, um, as they happen. Makes sense.

Stephanie 16:53 Uh, to think about you you know, then to get back into ethnography again, um, we're gonna ask you a lot of nerdy questions about it because, again, it is so fun to talk about. But I'm curious, you know, in your experience, if you could talk a little bit about how ethnography really does help uncover those hidden un unsaid, right, not in a focus group, not in a survey insights that we just can't get to in in easily another formats. And in that same vein, do you have a particular example where ethnography revealed something about consumers or your customers that that really did surprise ve historical validity, have contemporary validity, and have, um, longevity Yeah.

Stephanie 16:53 Uh, to think about you you know, then to get back into ethnography again, um, we're gonna ask you a lot of nerdy questions about it because, again, it is so fun to talk about. But I'm curious, you know, in your experience, if you could talk a little bit about how ethnography really does help uncover those hidden un unsaid, right, not in a focus group, not in a survey insights that we just can't get to in in easily another formats. And in that same vein, do you have a particular example where ethnography revealed something about consumers or your customers that that really did surprise aphy really does help uncover those hidden un unsaid, right, not in a focus group, not in a survey insights that we just can't get to in in easily another formats. And in that same vein, do you have a particular example where ethnography revealed something about consumers or your customers that that really did surprise

Lindsey 17:29 you? Yeah. That's a good question. I think this is where ethnography really flexes its muscles. Right? Uh, surveys are great for scale, but they're limited by what you ask. You only get answers to the questions that you thought to pose. And those answers are usually structured and, uh, tend to be surface level. Focus groups, sure, they can help a bit more, but they also often fall victim to groupthink and dominant voices or consumers telling you what they think you wanna hear. Um, ethnography, as, you know, we said earlier, really helps you observe people in their element. And so all that the ego is gone. The the structure is gone. It's just very human, and it's about the connection. I mentioned this earlier, but we we did that trail running study, and I'll never forget. We were in, um, Chamonix, France, which we don't always go to glamorous places like that, but Chamonix is like, um, a mecca for trail runners. And I remember one of the runners said something that was, like, so moving that it shifted how one of our designers, you know, thought about footwear and their work for years. And I mentioned this earlier. Like, I have stakeholders that still quote me from that same runner long after the research has ended. Um, I'd say, like, another really good example is, um, you know, I was talking earlier about runners and how they eat, but another one that really stuck with me was how many runners, even those that were logging 50 plus miles a week, refused to call themselves runners. Um, and we were seeing it in survey data. We were seeing, like we were talking to these people who were runners. They're running a lot, and we would ask them directly, do you consider yourself a runner? Do you call yourself a runner? And we were like getting a lot of no's. Uh, the percentages were really low. We were that's so confusing. Why is that? It wasn't until we did ethnography and we were talking to consumers that we were able to uncover that something about that label felt elite and almost exclusionary. They saw running as part of their lifestyle, but not something that defined them. And so they were uncomfortable with that label. And that insight, it it really made us rethink how we talk about running, um, who our messaging includes or accidentally excludes. And it really reminded us that like identity is a nuance thing and the brand language that we use, it really needs to reflect that. And so, again, that's something that I just don't think you get unless you do ethnography. Otherwise, that just would have been sort of a data point floating out there that we would be confused about probably still today, but, um, ethnography really unleashes that that deeper understanding.

Matt 20:11 Was it go

Stephanie 20:14 ahead, Matt. aphy really does help uncover those hidden un unsaid, right, not in a focus group, not in a survey insights that we just can't get to in in easily another formats. And in that same vein, do you have a particular example where ethnography revealed something about consumers or your customers that that really did surprise

Matt 20:11 Was it go

Stephanie 20:14 ahead, Matt. t I just don't think you get unless you do ethnography. Otherwise, that just would have been sort of a data point floating out there that we would be confused about probably still today, but, um, ethnography really unleashes that that deeper understanding.

Matt 20:11 Was it go

Stephanie 20:14 ahead, Matt.

Matt 20:16 Was it that they almost saw it as an aspirational title that they had not yet achieved, or was it just that it sort of brought up an image that they didn't necessarily fully associate themselves with? I'm just curious because that would kinda have implications for how you how you sort of act on that insight?

Lindsey 20:39 Uh, I think a little bit of both, but I think really it was more more the latter. I think they think of runners as professional runners, just like elite competitors, people who were doing it for a living, people who are professionals. Um, and so in some cases, maybe some of the consumers we were talking to aspire for that. But for the most part, our consumer, our target consumer for that brand, um, they're just people, and they run. They're they're parents, they're students, they're they're work in the corporate world. They're just people, and running is one thing that they do. It's a very important thing. It's a very meaningful thing to them, but it's just one part of who they are, and they don't want us to be identified as sort of one dimensional.

Matt 21:24 No. That's great. That's and then and this ethnographic approach enabled you to really suss out all of that nuance. Yeah.

Lindsey 21:30 For sure.

Matt 21:31 Really drew true understanding. It's very cool.

Stephanie 21:34 And I love like, you mentioned, you know, and most importantly, it had impact for kind of the the way you communicate about the brand and the value proposition. It even though changes the way that you do quantitative research, I imagine. Like, you don't wanna just qualify people in who call themselves runners. That would be a grave disservice to your larger audience. Totally.

Lindsey 21:54 Yeah.

Stephanie 21:55 Yeah. Super interesting.

Matt 21:58 Um, I'm curious. So you you have this emphasis on, um, deep ethnographic understanding, and you you alluded to it at the beginning of the talk. You know, it's it's a different vibe. It's a different approach than, say, your typical, um, choice based conjoined segmentation, you name it. Do you find you have challenges, uh, sharing those results out? You know, when when it comes time to actually tell the Insight story, do you have ways that you have to go about, um, really helping your stakeholders to understand, uh, the importance and to understand the finding given that you're sharing it with them in sort of a different way? t I just don't think you get unless you do ethnography. Otherwise, that just would have been sort of a data point floating out there that we would be confused about probably still today, but, um, ethnography really unleashes that that deeper understanding. Was it go

Stephanie 20:14 ahead, Matt.

Matt 21:24 No. That's great. That's and then and this ethnographic approach enabled you to really suss out all of that nuance. Yeah.

Lindsey 21:30 For sure.

Matt 21:31 Really drew true understanding. It's very cool.

Lindsey 21:54 Yeah.

Stephanie 21:55 Yeah. Super interesting.

Matt 21:58 Um, I'm curious. So you you have this emphasis on, um, deep ethnographic understanding, and you you alluded to it at the beginning of the talk. You know, it's it's a different vibe. It's a different approach than, say, your typical, um, choice based conjoined segmentation, you name it. Do you find you have challenges, uh, sharing those results out? You know, when when it comes time to actually tell the Insight story, do you have ways that you have to go about, um, really helping your stakeholders to understand, uh, the importance and to understand the finding given that you're sharing it with them in sort of a different way? lenges, uh, sharing those results out? You know, when when it comes time to actually tell the Insight story, do you have ways that you have to go about, um, really helping your stakeholders to understand, uh, the importance and to understand the finding given that you're sharing it with them in sort of a different way?

Lindsey 22:45 Yeah. That's a great question. I think one thing that we do here is we one of the methods we employ is is a process called four d. It's rooted in design thinking. It's all about embedding empathy into the innovation process, And it really works beautifully for ethnography because it keeps consumers front and center every step of the way. I'll break it down for you. So the four d's are define, discover, dream, and design. And so first, we define what we wanna learn. Maybe it's understanding the mindset of a trail runner or the pain points of a work boot consumer. Then we move into discover, and that's the field work. So we take cross functional teams with us, which is key. It's not just the insight teams in a vacuum. It's designers. It's marketers. It's it's salespeople. Everyone hearing it firsthand, whether that's in person, which we prefer, in person ethnography, or mobile ethnography, um, which we did quite a bit of in the post COVID era. Um, and then comes dream, and this kinda goes to answering your question. We come back together in a workshop setting, and we start clustering what we heard together. So tensions, unmet needs, consumer quotes that stuck with us. Um, it's not about my team presenting the insights to the team. It's about uncovering the insights with the team, and that shared ownership is what really makes it stick. And it helps feed into that last d, which is design, and that's where we use what we've uncovered together to spark new product ideas, messaging platforms, um, strategies. It's it's a whole journey. By the time we're done, the stakeholders are so immersed in it that they don't just remember the insights. They're championing them. They are advocating for them because they felt them and experienced them firsthand.

Matt 24:30 They were there for the journey. I think that's such a great approach. Um, and I having, uh, had a bit of exposure to to design thinking methods, I that really resonates. I mean, having, uh, cross collaborative group with you from the start, it also helps you as the researcher. Right? I mean, it helps you kinda frame questions in a way that, you know, you know are going to be easier for, um, maybe people who weren't lucky enough to be part of the Project Digest. You know, you can incorporate all those multiple viewpoints. I think that's just such a, uh, terrific advantage that Yeah. You know, a design thinking empowered ethnographic approach Yeah. That rolls off the tongue.

Lindsey 25:13 We'll we'll find an acronym for that too. lenges, uh, sharing those results out? You know, when when it comes time to actually tell the Insight story, do you have ways that you have to go about, um, really helping your stakeholders to understand, uh, the importance and to understand the finding given that you're sharing it with them in sort of a different way? Yeah. That's a great question. I think one thing that we do here is we one of the methods we employ is is a process called four d. It's rooted in design thinking. It's all about embedding empathy into the innovation process, And it really works beautifully for ethnography because it keeps consumers front and center every step of the way. I'll break it down for you. So the four d's are define, discover, dream, and design. And so first, we define what we wanna learn. Maybe it's understanding the mindset of a trail runner or the pain points of a work boot consumer. Then we move into discover, and that's the field work. So we take cross functional teams with us, which is key. It's not just the insight teams in a vacuum. It's designers. It's marketers. It's it's salespeople. Everyone hearing it firsthand, whether that's in person, which we prefer, in person ethnography, or mobile ethnography, um, which we did quite a bit of in the post COVID era. Um, and then comes dream, and this kinda goes to answering your question. We come back together in a workshop setting, and we start clustering what we heard together. So tensions, unmet needs, consumer quotes that stuck with us. Um, it's not about my team presenting the insights to the team. It's about uncovering the insights with the team, and that shared ownership is what really makes it stick. And it helps feed into that last d, which is design, and that's where we use what we've uncovered together to spark new product ideas, messaging platforms, um, strategies. It's it's a whole journey. By the time we're done, the stakeholders are so immersed in it that they don't just remember the insights. They're championing them. They are advocating for them because they felt them and experienced them firsthand.

Lindsey 25:13 We'll we'll find an acronym for that too. enough to be part of the Project Digest. You know, you can incorporate all those multiple viewpoints. I think that's just such a, uh, terrific advantage that Yeah. You know, a design thinking empowered ethnographic approach Yeah. That rolls off the tongue. We'll we'll find an acronym for that too.

Stephanie 25:15 For sure. There's always an acronym. Well, I mean, honestly, it sounds like a lot of upside. I'm curious if you could talk about any of the, like, the challenges with, like, either implementing this sort of approach and and bringing in stakeholders in this way or or just any other challenges that that might arise in this sort of, you know, slightly different process of really bringing people along. Yeah.

Lindsey 25:40 I mean, I think the most common challenge is probably time. Uh, everyone's calendar is jammed, and convincing someone, especially a senior leader, to spend a couple of days traveling or even just dedicating a full day to a workshop, uh, can be a really hard sell. And even in today's budget conscious environment, even getting our own research team out and field can be a challenge, let alone, um, you know, finding the budget to get our cross functional partners to come along. But here's the thing, I think. Once people experience it, they're sold. Uh, we've had stakeholders who were pretty skeptical, uh, detractors even of research as a whole, come along on one field work trip or participate in one workshop and walk away completely changed, you know, buzzing with ideas, quoting things they heard, rethinking how they approach their role. And so I think for us, you know, to over overcome that initial resistance, we rely on a lot of case studies and storytelling and proof points. We show them case studies where insights led directly to a successful product launch or a campaign. We highlight how the investment in time paid off tenfold in business impact. And, honestly, we try to make it fun. You know, this doesn't have to be a dry academic exercise. It's human. It's immersive. And once you've done it, I think it's really hard for some of our stakeholders to go back to reading research reports in a PowerPoint.

Stephanie 27:03 I can see that.

Matt 27:07 Um, it occurs to me that, you know, central to ethnography working is it is deep. It is intimate to a degree. Uh, it it it emphasizes connection to a a point, um, that some other approaches don't. However, at Wolverine Worldwide, you have a house of brands where each brand has a very different, uh, you know, target persona. So how do you how do you balance that? Because, you know, do you have to tailor the ethnographic approach, or do you have to tailor your methods in any way given that the consumers you're you're speaking to, it's so important to get to that that deep level of connection, but they're just so different from one another. enough to be part of the Project Digest. You know, you can incorporate all those multiple viewpoints. I think that's just such a, uh, terrific advantage that Yeah. You know, a design thinking empowered ethnographic approach Yeah. That rolls off the tongue.

Lindsey 25:13 We'll we'll find an acronym for that too.

Stephanie 27:03 I can see that.

Matt 27:07 Um, it occurs to me that, you know, central to ethnography working is it is deep. It is intimate to a degree. Uh, it it it emphasizes connection to a a point, um, that some other approaches don't. However, at Wolverine Worldwide, you have a house of brands where each brand has a very different, uh, you know, target persona. So how do you how do you balance that? Because, you know, do you have to tailor the ethnographic approach, or do you have to tailor your methods in any way given that the consumers you're you're speaking to, it's so important to get to that that deep level of connection, but they're just so different from one another. So how do you how do you balance that? Because, you know, do you have to tailor the ethnographic approach, or do you have to tailor your methods in any way given that the consumers you're you're speaking to, it's so important to get to that that deep level of connection, but they're just so different from one another.

Lindsey 27:54 Yeah. Uh, it's definitely a mix of both. Right? We have foundational, you know, toolkits, uh, methodologies and frameworks that we think work across the portfolio. But I wouldn't say we're running a one size fits all playbook. I think to your point, each brand has its own identity, its own consumer target, its own set of business priorities, and so we have to adapt accordingly. And I think, you know, for example, the way we connect with a blue collar work boot consumer is gonna look different from how we engage with a Gen z lifestyle consumer. That work boot consumer, they're probably not posting, you know, outfit of the day pics on Instagram, and we're probably not gonna get them to download an ethnography app on their phone. So in those cases, we'll go to them. We'll go to job sites. We'll interview them face to face. Um, we'll make it informal and low tech. And frankly, you know, those conversations are still gold. They're real. They're unfiltered. They're deeply practical. And so, um, they're great. And but contrast that with how we might engage a Gen z consumer. Um, you know, they're digital natives. We'll use mobile ethnography. We can ask them to upload photos or create video diaries. They're gonna wanna show us their closets and their style rituals and, uh, you know, their TikTok or Instagram inspiration. Same core goal, right, empathy and insight, but but maybe different methods. I'd say though, where we stay consistent is on the back end, how we're synthesizing insights, how we're sharing them across the business, how we activate them through things like the four d process we've just talked about. That's the system that creates consistency. But, yeah, I'd say the front end approach, you know, always flexes based on the consumer we're trying to understand.

Stephanie 29:39 So I'm gonna take us back in time a little bit from from, uh, Wolverine worldwide and ask you a question going back to your Converse days. Mhmm. I'm curious, uh, how did the consumer insights team there use ethnography? And, again, is there any kind of specific instance that you could talk through where this kind of qualitative research, specifically ethnography, directly influenced a major shift in a product or a brand strategy? So how do you how do you balance that? Because, you know, do you have to tailor the ethnographic approach, or do you have to tailor your methods in any way given that the consumers you're you're speaking to, it's so important to get to that that deep level of connection, but they're just so different from one another.

Stephanie 29:39 So I'm gonna take us back in time a little bit from from, uh, Wolverine worldwide and ask you a question going back to your Converse days. Mhmm. I'm curious, uh, how did the consumer insights team there use ethnography? And, again, is there any kind of specific instance that you could talk through where this kind of qualitative research, specifically ethnography, directly influenced a major shift in a product or a brand strategy? ck to your Converse days. Mhmm. I'm curious, uh, how did the consumer insights team there use ethnography? And, again, is there any kind of specific instance that you could talk through where this kind of qualitative research, specifically ethnography, directly influenced a major shift in a product or a brand strategy?

Lindsey 30:08 Yeah. I Converse is is such an amazing brand, um, with such a unique fan base. Yeah. Honestly, I I have an example from Converse. It's probably one of my favorite examples of ethnography in action. Um, when I was there, we ran a a global online community where consumers could engage with us and each other. We would use it for feedback. We pose kinda exploratory questions, uh, trend spotting. The best part about it, though, was that it was interactive so people could upload photos. They could start their own threads. They could comment on each other's stuff. Um, it was sort of a window into their world that we didn't have to moderate or control. We could just kind of watch it unfold. Uh, and one day, a community member shared a photo of their Chuck Taylors, uh, completely covered in doodles and hand drawn artwork, and they talked about how they had worn them during this really meaningful time in their life and how each drawing was tied to a specific memory, and and it just it wasn't just a shoe. It was like their personal time capsule. And what happened next was just incredible. So dozens and then hundreds of other members started sharing their own trucks. Some of them were, like, signed by musicians or, you know, colored with the Sharpies or they, you know, did unique laces or they personalized them, but with patches or pins, and everyone had a story, and they were all telling this story of self expression through their shoes. Now, like, we already knew that customization was, like, a big part of the Chuck Taylor legacy, but this felt a little bit different. It was emotional. It was storytelling, and we didn't ask for it. It just happened organically. And that That's so cool. That insight, um, helped spark the made by you campaign, which if you're not familiar with it, definitely it's a few years old now, but definitely go back and look at it because it was, like, an award winning campaign that was just amazing. And we went around the world, and we photographed, uh, people's Chuck Taylors, everyday people, also celebrities, musicians, artists, and we featured them. They were just beautiful portraits of of their shoe, um, with their signature beneath it in a simple tagline made by insert name. And these were beautiful portraits. We put them up in subways and billboards and even art galleries. And it just it honored the consumer as a cocreator, and it really showed how ethnography, especially when it's observational and kinda open ended in this way, can lead to brand storytelling that feels so authentic and not manufactured.

Stephanie 32:41 Absolutely. Wow. That's super cool. ck to your Converse days. Mhmm. I'm curious, uh, how did the consumer insights team there use ethnography? And, again, is there any kind of specific instance that you could talk through where this kind of qualitative research, specifically ethnography, directly influenced a major shift in a product or a brand strategy?

Stephanie 32:41 Absolutely. Wow. That's super cool. s and even art galleries. And it just it honored the consumer as a cocreator, and it really showed how ethnography, especially when it's observational and kinda open ended in this way, can lead to brand storytelling that feels so authentic and not manufactured. Absolutely. Wow. That's super cool.

Matt 32:47 I wanted to go back, uh, just briefly to something you you mentioned, which was, um, finding ways to continue to do ethnographic research through the COVID nineteen pandemic, which just completely turned the qualitative research world on its head. Um, I I can't imagine the the the trials and tribulations we had to had to endure to to make that work. We're just curious if you could talk us through that

Lindsey 33:17 Yeah. I this is where we really started leaning into mobile ethnography, and we started something called the COVID nineteen consumer tracker during that time. And it was it was really a game changer, especially during such a chaotic and uncertain time. We couldn't travel, couldn't sit down with consumers in person, and so mobile ethnography became a lifeline for my team. We had people sharing video diaries and uploading photos and, you know, recording themselves. And it was a way to bring us right into their homes and still see their routines and understand their emotional states. And it gave us that real time window into how people were coping and adapting and, uh, really, like, reprioritizing their lives. But, you know, the trick isn't just collecting the insights. It's kinda keeping the momentum going, and that part for us kinda came down to two things, relevance and rhythm, I'd say. So if the tracker was just saying consumers are still anxious week after week Right. It starts to lose impact. And so we were layering in special topics like, um, how people were redefining their wellness, um, how their shopping behaviors were changing around home and comfort, just kinda small lifestyle shifts and things like that. And through that, we were able to catch kinda early signals of things like the slipper boom and, uh, the spike in the trail interest. And we're able to kinda pivot quickly in some cases because we were paying attention, not just to that headline emotion, but to those kinda undercurrents and the little behavioral changes that are happening around it. And then kind of the rhythm part is just keeping the cadence tight. You know, we didn't let insights pile up in a report, um, that was just gathering dust in a graveyard somewhere. We shared things as they emerged, whether it was just sort of like a quick email or a highlight reel or a quote. Um, the more you make it feel alive, the more likely it is that that people will act on it. s and even art galleries. And it just it honored the consumer as a cocreator, and it really showed how ethnography, especially when it's observational and kinda open ended in this way, can lead to brand storytelling that feels so authentic and not manufactured.

Stephanie 32:41 Absolutely. Wow. That's super cool.

Lindsey 33:17 Yeah. I this is where we really started leaning into mobile ethnography, and we started something called the COVID nineteen consumer tracker during that time. And it was it was really a game changer, especially during such a chaotic and uncertain time. We couldn't travel, couldn't sit down with consumers in person, and so mobile ethnography became a lifeline for my team. We had people sharing video diaries and uploading photos and, you know, recording themselves. And it was a way to bring us right into their homes and still see their routines and understand their emotional states. And it gave us that real time window into how people were coping and adapting and, uh, really, like, reprioritizing their lives. But, you know, the trick isn't just collecting the insights. It's kinda keeping the momentum going, and that part for us kinda came down to two things, relevance and rhythm, I'd say. So if the tracker was just saying consumers are still anxious week after week Right. It starts to lose impact. And so we were layering in special topics like, um, how people were redefining their wellness, um, how their shopping behaviors were changing around home and comfort, just kinda small lifestyle shifts and things like that. And through that, we were able to catch kinda early signals of things like the slipper boom and, uh, the spike in the trail interest. And we're able to kinda pivot quickly in some cases because we were paying attention, not just to that headline emotion, but to those kinda undercurrents and the little behavioral changes that are happening around it. And then kind of the rhythm part is just keeping the cadence tight. You know, we didn't let insights pile up in a report, um, that was just gathering dust in a graveyard somewhere. We shared things as they emerged, whether it was just sort of like a quick email or a highlight reel or a quote. Um, the more you make it feel alive, the more likely it is that that people will act on it. t. You know, we didn't let insights pile up in a report, um, that was just gathering dust in a graveyard somewhere. We shared things as they emerged, whether it was just sort of like a quick email or a highlight reel or a quote. Um, the more you make it feel alive, the more likely it is that that people will act on it.

Matt 35:07 Yeah. I I know. Uh, Stephanie and I could probably both talk about that having, um, run our our own, uh, COVID tracker AYTM through the pandemic. You're so right about the importance of making it heal alive and keeping it alive. Alive. And, um, I think that's a great insight, you know, when you're especially if it's a if you're tracking something that is not particularly fun, it's it's such a great opportunity to find other ways to spice in, you know, relevant topics, you know, week by week, month by month, by whatever it is. And Mhmm. Like you said, that also enables you to make it more of this, like, longitudinal experiment that allows you to dig into a lot more beyond just the, you know, how you're feeling about everything. Yeah. That's good.

Stephanie 35:52 For sure. I love that that advice was really advice across all modes of research that were being done at that time because you're right. It like, telling everybody every week, people are still really anxious.

Matt 36:02 It starts

Stephanie 36:03 it's it stops losing its its inside status. Right? It's it's it's become status quo. So, uh, I loved that. Um, well, cool. Thanks so much for for kinda sharing all this with you. I think we have a couple closers that we really like to, uh, ask a lot of our guests. Uh, and I'll I'll start if that's okay. Yeah. Um, piece of piece of advice. You're someone who's who's, you know, got some years of your career under your belt, certainly have worked in different frameworks and have a lot of, uh, a context for the value that you bring as a researcher. What is one piece of advice that you would give somebody who's just starting out in consumer insights?

Lindsey 36:43 Yeah. I love that. Um, I would say be curious. Like wildly annoyingly curious. It's the one skill you can't teach, and it's the one skill that will set you apart. Like, read everything, listen to podcasts, follow what's happening in your category and adjacent categories. I think great insights often come from really unexpected places. And the more inputs you have, I think the more valuable your outputs will be. And then just advocate for yourself. Ask to sit in on projects, you know, volunteer to participate in workshops, request access to reports you're curious about. I would say most of us in this field didn't major in consumer insights. Yeah. We learned by doing, by asking questions, and by having great mentors. So find someone whose work you admire, ask them how they got there. I think most people in this space really love to talk about what they do, so it should be easy enough.

Stephanie 37:37 Love that. t. You know, we didn't let insights pile up in a report, um, that was just gathering dust in a graveyard somewhere. We shared things as they emerged, whether it was just sort of like a quick email or a highlight reel or a quote. Um, the more you make it feel alive, the more likely it is that that people will act on it.

Matt 36:02 It starts

Stephanie 37:37 Love that. eld didn't major in consumer insights. Yeah. We learned by doing, by asking questions, and by having great mentors. So find someone whose work you admire, ask them how they got there. I think most people in this space really love to talk about what they do, so it should be easy enough. Love that.

Matt 37:38 Yeah. That's great advice. Um, my closing question is is the same question that's always on my mind. Uh, you know, the way brands have been using consumer insights to inform their strategy has changed, uh, year by year by year. We're now we're entering a space of, uh, fair to say, unprecedented. Um, I don't know what you wanna say there. You know, I think we're we're entering a space now where, uh, the rate of change is really accelerating, um, certainly in our field, uh, more than others. What's sort of one shift that that you see coming that you kinda have your eye on, uh, that you would advise others sorta track so they can be ahead of the ball?

Lindsey 38:26 Yeah. I think I think we're moving into an era where insights won't just inform strategy. They'll shape it in real time. I think this old school mindset of, yeah, we'll do research up front, and we'll go build something behind closed doors is kind of being replaced by more iterative consumer involved approaches. Uh, I think that's especially true in footwear and apparel. I think this idea that designers just know what the consumer wants before the consumer knows what they want. I think that idea is starting to fade because consumers today are just more informed, more vocal, more influential than ever before. You know, trends spread globally in a matter of hours now, thanks to, you know, TikTok and social media. Um, and so I think that means you need a research function that's really agile and one that can monitor behavior and mindset shifts as they're happening, uh, to be able to bring those insights directly into the creative process. And I think, you know, as an extension of that, I think we're also gonna see a lot more, like, co creation. So not just listening to consumers, but actually building with them, you know, bringing them into the process, inviting feedback before a product is finalized, even, you know, tapping into some consumer led storytelling. Uh, it's certainly more work, but it's also a lot more meaningful. And I think consumers wanna be part of the journey and and not just be looked at as an end user.

Stephanie 39:47 No. It's Yeah.

Matt 39:48 Such a great point. Well, we're gonna do the undercurrent now. Stephanie, did you already talk to Lindsay about the undercurrent

Lindsey 39:57 or no?

Stephanie 39:57 I did. Yep. Yep. Lindsay had a topic, like, immediately. Yeah.

Matt 40:02 Okay. 50 plus consumer. Matt taking an IEX. Okay. And then oh, yeah. Stephanie.

Stephanie 40:08 Stephanie dragging us down at the end of the nonresearch.net.

Matt 40:11 Good. No. It's an interesting point. Um, okay. So we'll just go in that order then. If no. Uh, is it is this the order we wanna go in, Steph? I don't know if you guys already talked about that.

Stephanie 40:21 Yeah. I think so. Yeah. eld didn't major in consumer insights. Yeah. We learned by doing, by asking questions, and by having great mentors. So find someone whose work you admire, ask them how they got there. I think most people in this space really love to talk about what they do, so it should be easy enough. Love that.

Stephanie 39:47 No. It's Yeah.

Matt 39:48 Such a great point. Well, we're gonna do the undercurrent now. Stephanie, did you already talk to Lindsay about the undercurrent

Lindsey 39:57 or no?

Stephanie 39:57 I did. Yep. Yep. Lindsay had a topic, like, immediately. Yeah.

Matt 40:02 Okay. 50 plus consumer. Matt taking an IEX. Okay. And then oh, yeah. Stephanie.

Stephanie 40:08 Stephanie dragging us down at the end of the nonresearch.net.

Stephanie 40:21 Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Stephanie dragging us down at the end of the nonresearch.net.

Stephanie 40:21 Yeah. I think so. Yeah.

Matt 40:23 Cool.

Stephanie 40:24 Well well, I don't know that we talked about it. But, Lindsay, are you okay to go first if Matt intros what what we're doing here? Yep. Good.

Matt 40:31 Alright. I'll just set us up then. Alright. Well, that, uh, concludes our, uh, scripted questions. No. Oh, no. No. I shouldn't say that. Okay.

Stephanie 40:41 Go again. It's okay. We're totally

Matt 40:42 off the cuff. We're totally off the cuff here. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsey 40:45 Definitely. I did no preparation whatsoever for this.

Matt 40:50 No. That's fine. Alright. Well, uh, Wendy, that concludes kind of, uh, uh, the core of the questions we had for you. Uh, loved having our conversation on ethnography. Um, really energized to kinda see that topic, uh, reemerge in the space. It's I I know it's something that a lot of us, um, who are just sort of naturally interested in studying people, uh, get really excited about. So really appreciate your, uh, your insight and your take on everything. Uh, we're going to close us out now with our short sort of after show segment called the undercurrent, which is where, uh, each of us just takes a brief moment to talk about something that is maybe tangentially related to our work in consumer insights. Maybe not, but it's just something that we're geeking out about in the moment and, uh, and share it with the, uh, with our audience here. So, Lindsay, why don't you take us away and, uh, get us started? What are you nerding out about this week?

Lindsey 41:50 I I love this. Um, lately, I've been really interested in this idea of longevity and specifically about how the 50 consumer is evolving and how outdated our cultural narratives about aging really are. I was at a conference recently, and I heard, um, Michael Clinton talk. Um, he wrote a book about this idea of the new longevity. Um, and, no, he's not paying me to, uh, say this right now, but, um, he shared a stat that I think I've I've heard before in different ways, but it really stuck with me. He said that if The US population aged 50 and older were its own country, it would be the third largest economy in the world with over 15,000,000,000,000 in spending power, and yet most brands are not marketing to them. Or if they are, they're marketing to them like they're, you know, on a cruise ship,

Matt 42:47 um, Stephanie dragging us down at the end of the nonresearch.net. Good. No. It's an interesting point. Um, okay. So we'll just go in that order then. If no. Uh, is it is this the order we wanna go in, Steph? I don't know if you guys already talked about that.

Stephanie 40:21 Yeah. I think so. Yeah.

Matt 40:23 Cool.

Stephanie 40:24 Well well, I don't know that we talked about it. But, Lindsay, are you okay to go first if Matt intros what what we're doing here? Yep. Good.

Matt 40:31 Alright. I'll just set us up then. Alright. Well, that, uh, concludes our, uh, scripted questions. No. Oh, no. No. I shouldn't say that. Okay.

Stephanie 40:41 Go again. It's okay. We're totally

Matt 40:42 off the cuff. We're totally off the cuff here. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsey 40:45 Definitely. I did no preparation whatsoever for this.

Matt 42:47 um, id that if The US population aged 50 and older were its own country, it would be the third largest economy in the world with over 15,000,000,000,000 in spending power, and yet most brands are not marketing to them. Or if they are, they're marketing to them like they're, you know, on a cruise ship, um,

Lindsey 42:47 drifting away into retirement. But the reality is, like, today's 50 consumer, they're working out, they're starting businesses, like, they're they're buying high-tech, they're doing luxury travel, they're they're into style, like and they're doing a lot of brand switching. Like, they're they're these, like, vibrant, active people who are completely misrepresented, especially in in fashion and footwear marketing. And so I've just become, like, obsessed with this question. What would happen if we started designing for these consumers as they really are instead of who we used to think they were? And I just think there's so much massive opportunity there, not just from a business standpoint, but just a cultural and a creative standpoint too. This is a generation that's being redefined in real time, and I feel like we're not paying enough attention.

Matt 43:34 I think that's such a great point. Are there are there particular voices, um, you know, particular brands or, um, you know, ad agencies, consultancies, whatever it is that may are doing a better job of paying attention to this segment than others that you can think of? Like, who who should we go to? Who should we look to as the leaders and

Stephanie 43:52 the honor perspective?

Lindsey 43:53 Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty soon it's gonna be me because I don't know. I mean, I I I really mostly have been really influenced by Michael Clinton's work. I I again, he is not paying me for this. He's just my my source of interest here, but, um, he has a whole website and it it's one part of it is consumer facing. It's for this 50 plus community to, um, talk to each other, and the other side is sort of business facing. And so I know he's doing a lot of work with companies to help them understand how to better market to, um, to this audience. But I I don't know. And I think that's kinda my point is that I don't think anyone's really talking about this. And it these are people that have loads and loads of disposable income, and they do care about style, and they do and they are active, and they are all the things we want them to be. And, uh, we just were sitting on a gold mine, I think. All of us are. Yeah.

Matt 44:54 We can be the change. We can we can start it right now.

Lindsey 44:56 Yes. Let's do it. id that if The US population aged 50 and older were its own country, it would be the third largest economy in the world with over 15,000,000,000,000 in spending power, and yet most brands are not marketing to them. Or if they are, they're marketing to them like they're, you know, on a cruise ship,

Matt 42:47 um,

Stephanie 43:52 the honor perspective?

Matt 44:54 We can be the change. We can we can start it right now.

Lindsey 44:56 Yes. Let's do it. f disposable income, and they do care about style, and they do and they are active, and they are all the things we want them to be. And, uh, we just were sitting on a gold mine, I think. All of us are. Yeah.

Matt 44:54 We can be the change. We can we can start it right now.

Lindsey 44:56 Yes. Let's do it.

Matt 44:59 No. That's great. Uh, somewhat related to to our conversation today, um, on on ethnography and, you know, passion for studying individuals, you know, for learning about people driving our our career choices. Um, I just wanted to mention, uh, for my little segment here that I had the pleasure of, uh, attending IIEX North America in DC just, uh, past week dating the episode, but that's okay. Um, it was really interesting for me to see the topics, not necessarily the topics of sessions that various researchers, brands, and agencies bring to the show, but the, uh, the undertones of those sessions, the the sort of, like, driving current, no pun intended, behind what's making people talk about the things that they're talking about. Now, obviously, um, data integrity is a big topic in our field right now. That was one topic. But alongside that, a lot of talk, uh, really getting back to this idea of empathy. And I found that interesting because, uh, we've been having a lot of conversations on on the show with insights leaders who, through one way or another, our conversation will almost, uh, eventually always turn to empathy as a driving, uh, force in their their career aspirations, their their passion for insights. Um, and it's been interesting to kinda observe this this, like, cyclical nature in in the insights industry where, you you know, a few years ago, we were talking about empathy a lot. It was it almost sort of reached this this phase, I would say, where it'd be easy to kinda write it off as a buzzword. Like, it was sort of in all the the corporate briefings. A lot of people were talking about it. Like, hey. We're gonna do this empathy thing, and we're gonna we're gonna be empathetic. And then, um, I don't know. I kinda feel like it it went by the wayside to some degree, um, for a few years as we kind of collectively, as an industry, kinda moved on to the next, you know, shiny thing. And now we're in this space where everything is tech. Everything is AI. Everything has changed. Change. Change. Change. Social upheaval. Yada yada yada. And I think because of that, we're starting to see this this reemergence of a a growth in interest in and empathy again. Like, maybe there was something to that. You know? And kinda like as an industry, we're thinking this passion, this this, uh, true human, um, uh, impulse to to feel and understand, uh, others in a in a really meaningful way might actually be something core to to who we are as as professionals. And I just think it's it's cool to see that. Um, like I said, I I think it's interesting to see the cyclical nature of things. Yeah. Um, also, you know, we're all consumer insights nerds, and we love to be very helpful. So I I'd love to see that particular topic, um, sort of getting another a second, third moment in the spotlight.

Lindsey 47:56 Yeah. I love that. f disposable income, and they do care about style, and they do and they are active, and they are all the things we want them to be. And, uh, we just were sitting on a gold mine, I think. All of us are. Yeah.

Matt 44:54 We can be the change. We can we can start it right now.

Lindsey 44:56 Yes. Let's do it.

Lindsey 47:56 Yeah. I love that. e I said, I I think it's interesting to see the cyclical nature of things. Yeah. Um, also, you know, we're all consumer insights nerds, and we love to be very helpful. So I I'd love to see that particular topic, um, sort of getting another a second, third moment in the spotlight. Yeah. I love that.

Stephanie 47:58 Yeah. It's a good one, Matt. Um, well, just to round us out here with a, you know I can't even call this tangentially related, but I'm gonna develop a reputation for doing this, going way off topic. Uh, my undercurrent sort of, uh, thing I'm nerding out about this week is a book I'm reading called Everything is Tuberculosis by John Green. It is a nonfiction book. It's about the history and persistence of tuberculosis. Uh, Uh, I think, you know, the book essentially is is just positing that people think of TB as this disease of the past, but in reality, it's not. Uh, I think ten million people will be diagnosed with tuberculosis this year. And we know the direct causes, of course, of bacteria. Um, but Green's argument in the book is that the real cause of TB in the twenty first century is humans. Uh, I'll say consumers, so it'll be relevant. It's consumers. Just kidding. But but, you know, my point is we know how to kill this that human choice, human built systems, though, are the root cause. So it's just this book that dives into the social determinants of health, things like poverty, lack of education, and and systems that are discriminatory often by design. Um, Um, but it's told in a narrative thought format through one boy's one young man's experience in Sierra Leone. So it's a really powerful you know? And and I think, Matt, back to your point about empathy, when it's told that way, it really has the ability to draw you in. Right? Because it is a story about one person kinda navigating this reality. It's a it's a sobering read, but it's, uh, definitely a worthwhile one. So

Lindsey 49:36 Nice.

Stephanie 49:40 Alright. Well yeah. Lindsay, thanks again so much for joining us today. I have to say, this is definitely one of our more, besides the end there, fun episodes to record, so many fun examples from your work. So we really appreciated getting to know about you and your work.

Lindsey 49:55 Yeah. Thank you for having me. This was fun.

Stephanie 49:58 Right. Awesome.

Matt 50:00 Thank you.

Stephanie 50:02 Yeah. e I said, I I think it's interesting to see the cyclical nature of things. Yeah. Um, also, you know, we're all consumer insights nerds, and we love to be very helpful. So I I'd love to see that particular topic, um, sort of getting another a second, third moment in the spotlight.

Lindsey 47:56 Yeah. I love that.

Lindsey 49:36 Nice.

Lindsey 49:55 Yeah. Thank you for having me. This was fun.

Stephanie 49:58 Right. Awesome.

Matt 50:00 Thank you.

Stephanie 50:02 Yeah.

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