Stephanie 0:03 Alright. Oh, Matt, do you know if Jess is joining us today?

Matt 0:07 Oh, I don't believe so. I think she just joined the first one just to make sure everything was working correctly behind the scenes, but I'm sure she's planning on today.

Stephanie 0:16 Okay. Perfect. Alright. Then I'll get us started with our intro, and then we can go from there. K. Perfect.

Matt 0:24 Alright.

Stephanie 0:25 Today, we're thrilled to be joined by Tina Tonelli, a visionary leader in the world of insights and analytics in the consumer health space. As the North America lead for consumer and business insights at Halion, Tina has been instrumental in shaping how Halion thinks about such things as inclusive marketing, centering consumer insights in the business decision making process, and leveraging generative AI to to drive transformative change.

Matt 0:54 We'll explore Tina's strategies for reaching underserved audiences, transforming insights teams into dynamic strategic partners, and the timeless value of getting deep into the data. This is a conversation packed with insights for anyone looking, uh, to, uh, stay ahead in in evolving industry, and we're looking forward to get started. So with that, Tina, uh, welcome.

Tina 1:16 Thank you so much, guys, and thank you for the introduction. I I'm blushing a little bit over here, so thank you very much. Um, and all of those topics are ones that I feel very passionately about. So looking forward to this conversation very much.

Stephanie 1:29 We do too. It'll be a fun one. Um, to kick us off, because we always like to ask, uh, a question to to help us understand how you got to where you are now. So like we talked about, you've been a champion of some of the most impactful initiatives that are in consumer insights right now. I think from fostering inclusivity and research to adopting AI driven innovation. And then like I said before, centering really the role of insights and decision making. Before we dive into all that, the $1,000,000 question, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into market research, your journey sort of through the industry, and how your approach maybe has changed over time? en innovation. And then like I said before, centering really the role of insights and decision making. Before we dive into all that, the $1,000,000 question, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into market research, your journey sort of through the industry, and how your approach maybe has changed over time?

Tina 2:09 Sure. I will tell you the Tia Chinelli journey, as exciting as it is, I guess. Um, so I started actually in brand management. So I started in marketing. That's where I started. And I joke with people that I'm kind of a marketer at heart, which I actually think helps a lot in market research, but a lot. So I started in marketing and I spent 5 years in brand management. And I learned a lot about how to run a business, how to connect with stakeholders, business acumen, like, all of that stuff. I spent a lot of time there. But with the time that I loved was the time I spent digging into the data, seeding your data. I loved the crosstabs. I'm dating myself. But, like, the crosstabs in a segmentation study that we did on sleep. Like, I spent time there, and I just loved having conversations with the gentleman who was leading our market research department. And so for me, honestly, I am a curious person by nature, and I love to grow and learn. And I was like, I think if I go work with that guy, I'm gonna learn so much. So I moved over into the market research department, which was in the process of being rebranded as Insights, which I have to say also attracted me. Um, and I worked with people who I learned a ton from, which was amazing. Um, and I also realized that I had something a little unique to offer in that space, which was having that business background and knowledge that I had. When I'm looking to influence stakeholders, a lot of times I could influence them even better because I had sat in their shoes. So I would be saying to them, I understand when I tell you that this ad is not what you want, that it's okay, and let's work together to try to figure out how to still hit your growth goals. So sort of operating in that way of being business minded but insights curious and sort of bringing those 2 pieces together, I think is sort of what what has made me special. And I've worked in consumer health care or health care my whole career. Um, I'm very much about understanding people and what makes them tick, but I feel like that needs to be used for the power of good. Because ultimately, you know, what you could be doing is forcing people to make bad decisions. And for me, looking in health care and and the opportunities that we have, I like to think about it in terms of understanding people's needs when it comes to their health and well-being and helping them to achieve those needs better through products and services. So if I'm doing that, then I feel like I can sleep at night with the, uh, with doing the the work that I do. Um, and so when I look at how it's changed over time, what's interesting is I I'm always still curious about people. That's kind of what drives me is curiosity and understanding people. When I started out in research, it was understanding consumers and understanding consumers of, like, an individual category and getting to know them really, really well. And my aperture really has just grown into, like, really thinking about people as people. Mhmm. Um, and I think the other piece of it is taking that curiosity that I have about people that we serve and applying it to the stakeholders who we influence. Because I think the more that you grow in your insights career, the importance of influencing stakeholders and partnering with stakeholders, you almost have to look at them as consumers too and what makes them tick so you can help them do their job better. So that's probably what's changed the most as I've sort of gone through my career. more that you grow in your insights career, the importance of influencing stakeholders and partnering with stakeholders, you almost have to look at them as consumers too and what makes them tick so you can help them do their job better. So that's probably what's changed the most as I've sort of gone through my career.

Stephanie 5:38 That's excellent. I love that so so much. Um, okay. So switching gears just a little bit. I I think Matt and I are both really interested in talking to you about inclusive, uh, market research and and, you know, focusing on underserved audiences. And sort of the way that we're thinking about it is that it it feels like to us that it's no longer a nice to have, but more like a necessity for staying competitive. And we were thinking about it in the context of the foresight work that you do too and thinking about what market what the market's gonna look like in 15 years or 20 years, and we know it's gonna look so different. Do you have any, like, recommendations for frameworks that insights leaders might consider for identifying and engaging with underserved audiences in a way that feels authentic both to their brand or your brand and to the audience?

Tina 6:35 Yeah. That's a really great question, Stephanie, and one I feel very passionately about. So let's talk about it.

Stephanie 6:40 Yeah. ders might consider for identifying and engaging with underserved audiences in a way that feels authentic both to their brand or your brand and to the audience?

Tina 6:35 Yeah. That's a really great question, Stephanie, and one I feel very passionately about. So let's talk about it.

Stephanie 6:40 Yeah.

Tina 6:41 When, um, back in COVID time, when everybody was spending a lot of time at home and really doing a lot of self reflection, I did a lot of that myself. And over the years, I've always worked in insights, but I've always heard people talk about, We're gonna do something targeted to these communities, or this group, or that group. And I thought to myself, we should be amplifying the voices of people that aren't being heard, but we shouldn't assume that we know who's not being heard. And I think there's a lot of times where people make that assumption. So what I wanted to do was try to approach it really simply and say, Okay, who are the people who are feeling like they're being left behind? So I went and pulled some pretty big macro information about looking at different, like, 30 different groups of people, veterans, single moms, and you name it, I had it in there. And who were the people who over indexed on feeling like brands didn't understand them, didn't, you know, respect them, feel like they were part of it. And so I looked and I identified those groups and I said, okay, who over indexes on that? Right? And then I pulled those groups together. So that's the first question to me is challenging your assumptions about who's underserved. And then the 2nd piece that I did was prioritization, which is always the challenge. Right? It's always, uh, how are we gonna prioritize? Um, so what I did was I looked at those groups against some criteria for our company. So do they have the needs that we serve? Would do they over index in arthritis as an example? What is the size of their population? So how many people can we actually help? And then looked at things like how well are we meeting their needs today versus how well is the category meeting their needs. So we have a gap maybe in terms of meeting their needs best. So if you look at those 3 things and say, let's look at the number of people, the relevance to us, and sort of how well we're doing today, We pulled together a score and we prioritized them. And it was really fascinating stuff because everybody aligns to the criteria and then you see the results, and it's like, oh, wow. I didn't think it was gonna be that. Um, but I've used that as a really good lighthouse and anchor for people to say, let's make sure that these groups in particular, especially like our top 5, are always counted in our sample, and we can always look at them and understand their perspective.

Stephanie 9:01 It's so interesting because the way you describe it, it makes me sort of realize and and, you know, gut check this for me that it's it's a pretty personal exercise for the brand, that it's not gonna be the same cookie cutter set of people who who feel underserved. nd understand their perspective. It's so interesting because the way you describe it, it makes me sort of realize and and, you know, gut check this for me that it's it's a pretty personal exercise for the brand, that it's not gonna be the same cookie cutter set of people who who feel underserved.

Tina 9:17 I think I really think so, Stephanie. I think the more that you can be personal to where you can make a difference and where you uniquely can make a difference, then to me, you're both effective, but then you're also authentic. Because you can make a difference. And that difference feels like it's connected to what makes you special as a brand or special as a company. And so for us, that really has helped us to say, okay. These are the people that need our help the most, where we can help them the most. And then how do we think about understanding them? And and, first of all, just including them in our samples and making sure that we have an inclusive sample. Like, honestly, it starts there. Yeah. Um, and it's as simple as that. Um, so yeah. Very cool.

Matt 10:03 That's so cool. I one of the things that struck me as you were working through that answer was your your business perspective showing through in the way you approach that problem, going back to your answer first question, which was, like, you know, like, being a researcher myself, obviously, my inclination is, oh, there's a problem. Let's do a survey. Let's do a focus group. Let's do research. But, um, I think, you know, something that really came through in in your approach there was, okay, first, acknowledge that when your research when you're trying to understand your blind spots, it's a blind spot. And you don't know what you don't know, which I think is such an important first step that is so easy to overlook. Yeah. And then understand how, as a business, the products and services that you actually offer address the needs because there are gonna be people that you probably wanna help, but that you can't because it's just not what Halion does, um, in your case. Right? Yeah. Really interesting perspective. Yeah. Um, I you had mentioned we we did a little bit of pre research, you know. You you're you're no you're no stranger to the podcast circuit. Obviously, you know, your your your thoughts and and, uh, work pieces, um, are out there in the public sphere and they kinda speak for themselves. You had mentioned, um, cultural fluency audits, and we were both really interested to get into that. So when you're conducting these audits, what are the most common gaps that organizations are are likely to uncover? You know, what are the problems that they're likely to discover when they do one of these audits? lves. You had mentioned, um, cultural fluency audits, and we were both really interested to get into that. So when you're conducting these audits, what are the most common gaps that organizations are are likely to uncover? You know, what are the problems that they're likely to discover when they do one of these audits?

Tina 11:39 Yeah. So, um, I think the number one thing is overestimating themselves. So a lot of people come in and they're like, oh, we totally know this group. You know? Like, we you know, we'll think about these different groups, and we're like, we we know a lot of that. We know all about we have tons of consumer insights about that. And then it'll be like, do you understand where they shop? Do you understand what their undermet needs are? Do you understand, you know, why they're not using you at the same level as your competition today? And people will be like, dang. Those are actually the most important questions. So I think for us, as we looked at the cultural fluency audit, we there was a couple of things. We looked at it from a research perspective, but also from a marketing strategy perspective and sort of executional perspective, and then also from, like, an innovation perspective. So looking at all those pieces, there are actually 3 different groups within the company that we were sort of tapping into. But we were saying if you really wanna be culturally fluent, you need to understand the people. You need to make sure that you're you're building marketing that is authentic and good for them. And then you're also in your pipeline for the future. You're making sure that their voices are heard and informing your sort of guidance for the future. Um, and it's I will say it's much easier said than done. It is a a comprehensive journey is what I to say. We're on a journey, and it's, um, progress over perfection. So we haven't always gotten it perfect, and we've continued to optimize as we go. But to me, waiting for perfection is not the reason not to do something. It's better to do something and move forward than sit and wait till you have it perfect.

Stephanie 13:22 100%. Yeah. Love that. Um, switching gears a little bit, and this is a topic that, again, this is I'm. Matt and I both spend a lot of time thinking about this topic, so I'm gonna keep asking your advice. Sorry. Yeah. Anywhere where I know you're, like, thinking and doing work, I'm just so interested to hear your perspective. But it does seem like a lot of your career has been oriented towards elevating the role of consumer insights within organizations.

Tina 13:50 Yeah. pic, so I'm gonna keep asking your advice. Sorry. Yeah. Anywhere where I know you're, like, thinking and doing work, I'm just so interested to hear your perspective. But it does seem like a lot of your career has been oriented towards elevating the role of consumer insights within organizations. Yeah.

Stephanie 13:51 And the way that Matt and I kinda come at this is, you know, as as a supplier side company, but a lot of our clients are struggling through this process. And we have the both the privilege and the, you know, the sort of daunting task of being on that journey with them and and supporting that journey. And it is not easy at a lot of organizations. It can be a really like, it it's a huge transition to make. And I was curious, you know, what advice do you have for insights leaders who are really looking to elevate and transform the role of insights from, like, reactive order takers to strategic proactive business partners?

Tina 14:31 So I think the first thing is mindset. So I would say it starts with a mindset shift for some people. Some people, they have this naturally. But in my experience in a variety of different organizations, this isn't the standard mindset for a market researcher. And that mindset is what is the business impact that you are driving with this question? And it I can't even tell you the transformation that that alone has with people because then you start going, oh, okay. When you come to me and ask me marketers sometimes will come ask curiosity questions. I'm sorry you guys get them too. Like, they just wanna know. Like and I'm curious too. So I sometimes we get suckered into it and we just go do it because we're just so curious ourselves. But what in this day and age of limited resources, I think it's so incredibly important to ask that question. Where is that question coming from? What is that answer going to be used for in terms of driving business impact? And if you don't have a good answer for it, then ultimately, you probably shouldn't be doing it, or you certainly should ask a lot more questions before you execute it. And I find that it's almost like you don't have to go from from reactive to proactive. I think proactive is like this, um, shiny horse at the end of the I don't know. Like, I was trying to combine too many metaphors. I think that the, uh, the silver bullet, the unicorn, fill in the blank, all those guys. I think I just put all those together. But if you look at it as that, proactive is so hard when you have limited resources. But going from reactive order taker to strategic impact partner, I think that to me is what's actually achievable for people. So instead of you know, I I take those questions and go, okay. Yes. They're maybe not proactive, but you've cut our budget. You cut our people. You it's really hard to have the time to be proactive, but it doesn't take any time at all to have business impact and really be able to quantify that and talk about it.

Stephanie 16:36 Love that.

Matt 16:37 That's great input. Uh, you have also said like I said, Tina, we got we got all your quotes here. We're just gonna go ahead and reach out. be proactive, but it doesn't take any time at all to have business impact and really be able to quantify that and talk about it.

Stephanie 16:36 Love that.

Matt 16:37 That's great input. Uh, you have also said like I said, Tina, we got we got all your quotes here. We're just gonna go ahead and reach out.

Tina 16:46 So I'm scared now.

Matt 16:48 Going back to your answer though, you have said, you're not done as a researcher until the business impact happens.

Tina 16:56 Right. Yeah.

Matt 16:57 Which which both Stephanie and I found just really, um, had a lot of resonance. So what specific steps, you know, can an insights team take to to make that jump? You know, how do they ensure that that their research findings actually translate into a tangible business outcome for lack of a better term? I know that's, you know, you only control so much Yeah. From the insights department. But how do you maximize your chances of, you know, your findings not just winding up on a PowerPoint report that ends up in a desk somewhere, um, and actually makes it, uh, all the way through to a a real outcome? ck of a better term? I know that's, you know, you only control so much Yeah. From the insights department. But how do you maximize your chances of, you know, your findings not just winding up on a PowerPoint report that ends up in a desk somewhere, um, and actually makes it, uh, all the way through to a a real outcome?

Tina 17:34 Yeah. Um, that is the $30,000,000 question or whatever. I'm totally with you, Matt. I think first, it starts with the mindset and asking those questions upfront. So asking the questions, what is the business impact that we're trying to drive? What is the business decision we're trying to ask? Too often as researchers, we don't ask those tough questions up front. So I think it's like the tough questions up front of, like, what is this gonna be used for? What what business impact? And And sometimes you might need to help your stakeholders get there because they don't always know. There's a lot of that upfront, I notice. Um, and then once you get the results back, a, you have to have the courage to have a point of view. There's so often that I see researchers who are like, I don't wanna tell them that they shouldn't do that. They shouldn't launch that. This isn't the right color. You know? Like, I'm terrified to put that point of view out there. And that's probably the number one thing that I hear from stakeholders, commercial stakeholders, especially. They wanna know the point of view. And the point of view should be based on the data and your experience, and those 2 pieces come together. And I think a lot of people just feel really, really nervous about putting that point of view out there. And it's almost like what's the worst thing they could do is to say, I don't agree and make the decision anyway. But too often, I think people don't put a point of view out there. They assume that it's clear from their conclusions and what they're saying. And then they sit back when somebody makes a bad decision, and they're like, I I need a seat at the table. Like, nobody's listening to me. It's like, well, what did you say? Right? So to me, having a point of view is really important. And then the last piece is understanding your stakeholders as well as your consumers. So, like, the having that trust, having that partnership, having that connection with your commercial stakeholders, that's the only way you get them to really listen to you and be thoughtful and sort of earn their respect. And I think a lot of times we'll sit there and be like, well, they don't respect me. Well, why don't they respect you? Why aren't they calling you into those meetings? What is it that's holding them back? Like, the kind of questions you would ask yourself about a consumer, ask yourself that about your stakeholders. And so to me then, once you have that point of view and you understand your stakeholders really well, you know how you need to give it to them. Are they a numbers person? Do they need a story? Do they need to hear the consumer? Do they need a quick run by in the hallway where you give them I call it scoopage. You a thing with the scoopage kind of person. Like, what is it that they need to really take in the perspective that you have? And that to me is, like, the most critical. One other thing I would say is that the more complex and foundational and transformational the work that you do ere you give them I call it scoopage. You a thing with the scoopage kind of person. Like, what is it that they need to really take in the perspective that you have? And that to me is, like, the most critical. One other thing I would say is that the more complex and foundational and transformational the work that you do

Stephanie 20:24 Yeah.

Tina 20:25 The more work you have to do to pull it through. Um, and and I've seen that, like, we did a huge study a few years ago, and we did over a 100 work shops the 1st year. It was crazy. Internal, like, we just did them ourselves, and we didn't manage to pull it through at the level that I thought we should have. And then we just kept going the next year and just kept finding ways of making the story simpler, understanding why people weren't pulling it through, and we kept tweaking it and optimizing it. And we had a huge breakthrough that 2nd year. So I think the other thing I'd probably say is persistence and tenacity. If you really believe what you're doing is right, you know, have the courage to have that persistence and tenacity.

Stephanie 21:11 For sure. It's you know, it strikes me too about, like, just hearing you talk is is I really feel like the question and the answer are primarily oriented towards, like, a brand side or client side researcher, but there's so much that I take away from that as a supplier side researcher. I think there's a tendency when we're consulting. Matt and I both do a lot of consulting. To assume to assume that that that work has been done, what you guys are trying to do, and that we're trying to tighten and focus in on a methodology. And I have to remind myself all the time, especially the further that I get in my career, that it's okay to say, can we stop for a second and just back up and help me understand the business context? Yes. Informative.

Tina 21:53 Stephanie, I wish I wish the really great suppliers in my mind are the ones who understand my organization as well as I do. Because then they're bringing stuff to me and they'll say, okay, you're gonna need a video this time. Let's make sure we have the the data in the backup. They're delivering, um, presentations to me that I can almost take right in because they know my people as well as I do. So to your point, Stephanie, I a 100% agree that it's almost like people everybody needs to lean in a little bit further than they are. Yeah. Everybody needs to sort of get in everybody else's business a little bit more. Just a little more. I mean, like, just a little bit. Maybe not the whole way in everybody's business, but, like, understand what they're navigating and dealing with so that you can help them in the way that you sort of bring stuff to them.

Matt 22:42 Well and at the very and at the very least, like, this this, like, ivory tower mentality that researchers that that have always had because we sorta we we like to think of ourselves as, like, oh, we're the social scientists on the team. Right? Mhmm. So we're here. We we love it's such a comfortable place to be. And I mean, I'm guilty of this for sure where it's like, hey, I'm just reporting the news and ty that researchers that that have always had because we sorta we we like to think of ourselves as, like, oh, we're the social scientists on the team. Right? Mhmm. So we're here. We we love it's such a comfortable place to be. And I mean, I'm guilty of this for sure where it's like, hey, I'm just reporting the news and

Stephanie 23:06 The work stands for itself.

Tina 23:07 Yeah.

Matt 23:07 That's right. Yeah. It's like, you know, I I've done my due diligence to make sure that the science has been applied with rigor. Yes. And that's all great. But I mean, those days are are gone.

Tina 23:19 I mean There's just too

Matt 23:21 much change.

Tina 23:21 I totally agree with you, Matt. I think that the idea of, you know, really great researcher it's absolutely true that we need to make sure that we are designing things with integrity, that we've got the right checks and balances in there. Like, that is a 100% true. That is, I think, a lot of, like, machine learning and stuff is taken up in sort of taken up some of the slack in that space now. Yeah. But we still need to, like, keep our eyes on it and make sure we don't lose it. But I do think that the the more powerful areas are the ones where you influence people, but you you can't think of yourself as an academic. Like, I think some people that I've worked with in the past, like, really, really awesome researchers Mhmm. Are, like, they fall in love with the research versus the application of the research. And it's like, you can't fall in love with the research. You have to fall in love with making a difference with your research. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt 24:16 So making a difference. Um, I've I've got 1 more, like, business y related question that I I think is really valuable to get your your input on, which is Stephanie and I were just talking about this too, but before we got on. But, um, the the idea of proving out the return. Um, I remember, you know, 5, 6, 10 years ago, uh, return on research investment was, like, such a big term. I mean, Pete, that was that was the hot topic. And Yeah. There was all this energy being devoted towards, um, figuring out ways to prove out in a financial return on the work that we do. Mhmm. How do you do that today? I mean, for from your background, all of this robust sort of business understanding and contextualization, what are the best ways to do that? How do you how do you prove that the work is actually worth it? , um, figuring out ways to prove out in a financial return on the work that we do. Mhmm. How do you do that today? I mean, for from your background, all of this robust sort of business understanding and contextualization, what are the best ways to do that? How do you how do you prove that the work is actually worth it?

Tina 25:08 Oh, Matt. You're singing my song now. So I think on this one, I'm actually really excited and proud of what the team has done. And I was actually just talking to them about this last week because I was like, I talked to a lot of people and not a lot of people have accomplished this sort of starting point, which is having a dollar number that you can use to quantify the impact of your team. Yeah. And so that to me, I had a I had a leader years ago in J&J, and he used to always say, when he goes in for the budget, he's, like, singing for our supper. He said he would he'd always be like, I'm going to sing for our supper. And he'd always make sure that there was, like, some kind of quantified number. Because what happens is research is in the p and l. It's in that nonworking area. Right? It's a cost. So in order to get more resources and in order to have people think about research differently, you have to shift it in people's minds from a cost to a profit or a sales driver. And so for us but by the way, that's like the another shiny what do I call it? Shiny horse or something. Something. It's another unicorn. Right? It's another silver bullet. It's it's good luck with that one. So what we did was we went out and looked at sort of all the different ways people do things. And ultimately, if you get really good about understanding the business question that you're asking and what business act you think you'll have, you can do some work to actually quantify what that upside would be. And so and you have to be okay with assumptions. I've tried this probably 18 different ways during my career. I've always been focused on, like, how do we get that number? And you can spend 1,000,000 of dollars quantifying the effect of your own research in order to have a number that everybody can stand behind. And I think I've I haven't spent 1,000,000 of dollars, but I definitely have had people spending way too much time getting the accuracy and precision of those numbers perfect. What I find is and this to me was the big epiphany over the last couple of years. My team did this. They led an effort where we they brought the insights folks and the analytics folks together, and they looked at it and said, what is the business impact? And then understand simple like simple math. Okay? If my household penetration is x, and I and this is designed to try to grow household penetration, if I make an assumption that'll grow 0.1, what does that look like? And then what's the sales impact of that? And then, oh, by the way, if you really wanna get ahead of it, like, what's the profit impact of that? Because if you know for us, if you know sort of your gross margins and things, you can literally come back in and say, okay. You you've inputted something in up here, but the back end has all of your sales and your performance information into it so that you just put it up here and then it automatically calculates the amount that you have impacted. And so and and I have 2 people on the team who bless them. They are sort of my champions for this, my insights and my analytics people. I've got 2 people who are the champions of it, and they kind of like drive the accountability in the team. I can't I probably drive the accountability, but they sort of drive the process to make sure that everybody's getting in there because it is it is a little bit painful to have to, like, do that work, but it's a hell of a lot less painful than when your budgets get cut 20%. 100%. And so Yeah. For me, we've been doing that, and I am really careful to do it right around the time when I have to have budget conversations because that is the time when you better be walking in there and saying, I want a budget of x. Here's what we have delivered. So the last 2 years, 3 years, I've been able to go in and talk about the business impact that this team has had. At the same time, I was trying to justify the budget, and it makes that conversation so much easier. Is it perfect? No. And are they, like, throwing money at me from, like, a ROI kind of perspective? No. But it definitely helps shift that mindset from, like, it's totally just we're we're throwing money out there to, like, we're actually doing something that I can look at driving the business. Totally. And, um, Yeah. No. I just it's it's another one of those progress over perfection. It's highly assumptive based, um, but it is very logical. Um, and I think people can't argue with logic. Fair we're we're throwing money out there to, like, we're actually doing something that I can look at driving the business. Totally. And, um, Yeah. No. I just it's it's another one of those progress over perfection. It's highly assumptive based, um, but it is very logical. Um, and I think people can't argue with logic. Fair

Matt 29:31 enough. It's true. Okay. So so if I'm a researcher today, now Tina's telling me I gotta be, uh, I I gotta understand finance. I've gotta understand the balance sheet. I've gotta understand P

Tina 29:47 and L.

Matt 29:47 You know, the business and the strategy. I gotta get into the P and Ls. How how is there a tool out there maybe that that might help me do research a little bit

Tina 30:00 more? You know, I

Matt 30:02 hear about

Tina 30:03 this thing

Stephanie 30:03 called Gen AI. What a segue. Wow.

Tina 30:07 Where is this Gen AI? That initially, but then boy, you just laid it on thick enough that even my brain could catch up with where you're going. So that's brilliant, Matt. Thank you. Thank you for that beautiful setup. Uh, yes. Generative AI can help. I think generative AI, what I love about it is, like, what's the agent that you need help from, and you just sort of plug in the the need that you have. It can help you get really smart about stuff that you're not smart about. I would say the one caution I'd have on that one is I almost meant I would become best friends with the people in finance. Finance. Right? And so you need to understand where's the the culture of the finance. Right? And so you need to understand where's the the culture of the finance goals, and is it like, oh, we gotta drive profit. Like, right now, everybody's really I'm I'm making this up. That's not the case in my company. But cost savings, that kind of stuff, you know, like, what are the things that they're driving for? Because if you come in and you don't have that in mind, then you're tone deaf. But I don't know don't tell anybody. I guess I'm I'm outing myself here. I don't know all the puts and takes of a p and l and, like, balance sheets. I don't know everything about that, but I do know where we fit. I know that we fit in this place, and I know we drive impact in this place. And those are really important places to understand. So I think it's not understanding everything, but it is understanding where you sit and the impact that you drive and be really good friends with people on finance because you can go ask them dumb questions. Um, you can also ask generative AI dumb questions, but I find that my finance people generally have better answers, um, than than my generative AI, uh, agent. But that's me.

Matt 31:59 No. That's great. t that you drive and be really good friends with people on finance because you can go ask them dumb questions. Um, you can also ask generative AI dumb questions, but I find that my finance people generally have better answers, um, than than my generative AI, uh, agent. But that's me. No. That's great.

Stephanie 32:00 Yep. Good to know. Um, another topic that we wanted to to kinda chat with you about. I know we're just hitting you left and right, and I don't have a good segue on this one. Alright. Um, okay. So this one is, we know how important it is for consumer insights to move at the speed of business, to move at the speed of marketing, which is I mean, it's real time now. That's the world we live in. Everything is real time. And, you know, the the, uh, what did we say? What are we gonna call it? The golden horse? What is it?

Tina 32:29 The shiny horse. The shiny horse. I don't know. I don't think we should I love it. I think it sounds better.

Stephanie 32:36 Yeah. The shiny golden horse that has been brought to us is, of course, agile, agile methods, and agile processes. And that's the, you know, the kind of work that allows us to kinda meet speed, meet standardization goals so that everybody you know, the right person has the right data at the right time. I'm curious if you see any downsides to our industry's shift to this agile process. Um, like, are we sacrificing depth and nuance for speed and standardization? Where where do you guys land with agile? t speed, meet standardization goals so that everybody you know, the right person has the right data at the right time. I'm curious if you see any downsides to our industry's shift to this agile process. Um, like, are we sacrificing depth and nuance for speed and standardization? Where where do you guys land with agile?

Tina 33:10 Yeah. So I think it depends on the problem to solve. That you know, I I would I would again go back to, like, sometimes it's okay to have I always call it, like, quick and dirty research. So there's like you just wanna make sure it's quick and not too dirty. Sometimes it's okay to have a little bit of smudges and dirt in what you're talking about. But there's sometimes where you need that stuff to be pristine perfect because of the risk associated with it. So for me, I kinda look at it on that risk profile of the higher the risk, the more time, effort, and quality is critically important. But there's a lot of times I know in my organization, we we sort of joke about just asking a consumer because so often people will be like, um, is it black or is it blah blah blah? Like, what color should we pick? Or which like, you know what, guys? Just ask a consumer. Like, if we have that agile panel that can always be asking questions, we've used that. We've tapped into it a lot just to you know, you don't have to pull together a brief and all this kind of stuff. It's like, I just wanna know this one little thing. Like, that's super easy, and that's a great use for it in my mind. When you start using the wrong tool for the wrong job, I e, starting to ask a really simple question out of a really complex methodology, well, then that's that's just not gonna work very well. And the same thing on the other side, if you try to take a really complex high risk business problem and put that into an agile quick and dirty kind of thing, there's you're just increasing your risk. So it's almost like a risk tolerance perspective is how I think about it. And there are times when we have things that we have what it is more important to have speed over over, um, quality.

Stephanie 35:00 Yeah. Yeah. That that makes sense. I think the the use of color as a as an example is one that has always resonated to me. I had somebody very early on in my career say, if the situation is they're going to make it and they're gonna make it in 1 color or the other, 80% confidence is fine. Flipping it as long as it's better than a coin flip. And that was revolutionary to me because I came from an academic background where I'm in

Tina 35:25 the past set. I was like, no. Do it correctly. There's the right way and the wrong way to do things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie 35:31 And so Yeah. Good learning moment. But

Tina 35:33 Yeah. I'm a big fan of of, um, scrappy, not crappy. So that's I love that. You have a little bit of both of those in there, but never never too much. Yeah. ectly. There's the right way and the wrong way to do things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie 35:31 And so Yeah. Good learning moment. But

Tina 35:33 Yeah. I'm a big fan of of, um, scrappy, not crappy. So that's I love that. You have a little bit of both of those in there, but never never too much. Yeah.

Matt 35:44 Is there is it a slippery slope, though? Because I know so most definitely I have have spent time on the client side. I know, um, man, some some executives, once they get a taste for that quick hit insight that just, you know, it drives a decision or validates a decision, suddenly, they can tackle everything with a scrappy not crappy research. Yeah. Do you do you find sometimes that, like, there's a danger of, uh, um, maybe, uh, biasing your stakeholders or your executives towards a research method that's, you know, really fast. Uh, and suddenly now their expectations are shifting because that's what they're used to. Have you seen that happen at all? Is there something you can do to sort of corral that?

Tina 36:33 Yeah. I mean, I would say a 100%, Matt. I think it there's a there's a constant battle between the unrealistic expectations of upper management and the what we can accomplish or achieve reality of our jobs. And so what I have found is there's the agile thing, which was like, oh, we'll solve everything with agile. And and you you can spend less money and just, like, money and just, like, pull stuff out of the web, and then they give you answers. Like, you got all your answers there. And so we've had to say yes, and sometimes that's appropriate. Right? That's like, part of our job is managing those expectations, and that's the not sexy part of our job. Mhmm. And that's the hard part of our job because I think a lot of times, the researchers who are really effective get in there, roll up their sleeves, and have those tough conversations even with a general manager. And say, here's why that is not gonna work. But you have to be an influencer and understand them and what the issue is so that you can articulate that. But that's that's hard work. Um, the other piece that I've noticed recently is generative AI and AI in overall. And so I've gotten on this big soapbox for a while now to be like, hey. AI's been doing research has been doing AI for, like, 10 plus years, guys. Like, let's not talk about AI. It's generative AI. Yes. And generative AI is so early and new that it's like this new baby with a magic wand. I always joke it's actually like Harry Potter.

Stephanie 38:08 A little baby with magic.

Tina 38:09 It's Harry Potter in your pocket. So it's Harry Potter, but it's Harry Potter when he first went to school. And he didn't know what he was doing, and, you know, it, like, could be super dangerous. But, like, our job to me is to put Harry, like, under our wing and say, okay. Let me teach you the ways of market

Stephanie 38:26 research. Yes.

Tina 38:27 Right? And and to protect that that amazing foundational technology from over or under expectations that come from people who don't, um, spend time or have misconceptions about it.

Stephanie 38:41 So true. Yep. say, okay. Let me teach you the ways of market research. Yes.

Tina 38:27 Right? And and to protect that that amazing foundational technology from over or under expectations that come from people who don't, um, spend time or have misconceptions about it.

Stephanie 38:41 So true. Yep.

Matt 38:42 That's such an endearing branding of of of Jet AI. I love it. That's gonna stick with me forever. Yeah. Um, I know we're we're we're closing up on time, uh, but there is a question again. One another thing going back to your work in, um, future research.

Tina 39:01 Mhmm.

Matt 39:02 Uh, we were just curious to get, you know, your opinion on we a lot of these a lot of conversations center on the industry. Where is the industry going? What role is is Gen AI gonna play? Um, since you have this this robust background in in, you know, tracking populations, thinking far out in advance, um, maybe underserved populations. What are the big consumer trends that people should be paying attention to if they're if they're in our industry, you know, 5 years out, 10 years out?

Stephanie 39:36 Yeah. Things that are coming.

Tina 39:38 Yeah. So you know what's fascinating? So we started this last year. We started a foresight capability in our company, and I'm super proud of it. But what we did as we were approaching that is a lot of times people talk about what's the hot trend. What's the hot trend that's happening right now? Um, and I had a moment as we were preparing for this where I was like, yeah. Well, we need to think into the future. Like, what trend's really hot? And it was like, a trend that's really hot is happening right now. That's actually not in the future. Mhmm. So for us, it was like, it was me for me, it was such an awakening to go, oh my god. I'm thinking about this wrong. And instead, we said, okay. Let's look 5 years into the future. And what are the things that you know with a high degree of confidence are gonna be happening 5 years in the future? Let's just start there. And it's things like looking at demographic changes. That's pretty easy to look at and to see what we think is gonna happen with with, uh, the demographics of the United States from an age, ethnicity, all that stuff. You can look 5 years in the future and and pretty much see what that's gonna look like. Climate change, that's another one. You know?

Stephanie 40:44 So you can use the macro stuff that you what we think is gonna happen with with, uh, the demographics of the United States from an age, ethnicity, all that stuff. You can look 5 years in the future and and pretty much see what that's gonna look like. Climate change, that's another one. You know? So you can use the macro stuff that you

Tina 40:46 really sort of identified? Macro things. And by the way, if you take the time to really think about 5 years in the future and sort of visit that 5 years in the future, first of all, people get depressed. So I'm a fan of apocalyptic novels and, like, dystopian things. So for me, it was probably not as shocking as it was for some other folks. But for the for a lot of folks, they kind of have that initial shock of like, oh, that doesn't feel great because the future does have a lot of challenges in it. But once you do that, you can actually look back. I always joke it's like hindsight. So if you can give yourself the gift of hindsight, I can't how many times do we say hindsight's 2020 and learning from our mistakes? But how do you learn from looking 5 years in the future and look back and be like, wow. What do we do now about climate change and how it infects Yeah. People's lives and what they're doing? Because people aren't really thinking about that, but there's tornadoes, there's huge like, all these things are happening for a reason, and it's just gonna get more. So how do you think about that and say, what do I do now to make a difference there? Um, and I think that's actually really exciting. And people tended to get over the whole dystopian fear Once you start saying, if you act now and not put your head in the sand, you can actually make more of the difference in the future than if you just ignore it because it's depressing.

Matt 42:10 I love the idea of

Tina 42:12 no. Just say no. No.

Stephanie 42:14 It's it's

Matt 42:15 It was just a little thing, but I I love the idea of going there, you know, quote unquote. I mean, I think there's so much power in that. Like, you know, you brought up the the interest in in, you know, the the, uh, apocalyptic novels, science fiction, like futurists forever have said, these things are fun to read and they're they're fun to understand. Everybody loves Star Wars and Star Trek, but they're also prophetic to some degree. I mean, there's value in just imagining a future state and and actually going there. I I I love that idea as an activity and then sort of doing a retrospective on, oh, no. What should we have known? How should we have prepared for for this? Or

Tina 42:55 Yeah. And that one of the things we haven't talked about that I think is a really, really critical skill for researchers and will continue to be in the future even more so is storytelling.

Matt 43:05 Mhmm. ctive on, oh, no. What should we have known? How should we have prepared for for this? Or

Tina 42:55 Yeah. And that one of the things we haven't talked about that I think is a really, really critical skill for researchers and will continue to be in the future even more so is storytelling.

Matt 43:05 Mhmm.

Tina 43:05 I know people talk about it. It's a little bit of a hot thing right now. But I think how do you truly immerse them in the future to your exact point, Matt? Because there's reading stuff and understanding intellectually, and then there's feeling it emotionally. And I find that when you can get people to feel stuff emotionally and move them emotionally, they're much more ready to act and and sort of change things than if you just say, well, x% of the population will be x and y percent of the population will be y versus, like, let me paint a picture of this person's family and what it's gonna be like for them in the future. And it really did make a huge difference for for the team.

Stephanie 43:47 Yeah. That's amazing.

Matt 43:51 Well, should we close it up there, Steph? We we can just edit this little back and forth out. I just noticed that we're up on time.

Stephanie 44:01 I mean, I think we get all of our our main questions. Yeah. Let's just do a a little we'll cut all this, Tina. This jibber jabber we're doing right now.

Tina 44:08 It. No worries. No worries.

Stephanie 44:12 Do you wanna do your exit question, or do you feel like, no. That's really what we just talked about. Right?

Matt 44:17 Yeah. I feel like I I feel like that's a that's a I feel like we got everything.

Stephanie 44:20 Great note

Tina 44:21 to get done.

Stephanie 44:22 I think we did too. Well, let's just thank Tina, and do do our do our thing.

Matt 44:26 Oh, I was I was gonna turn it over to you. We since since since you you intro ed it, I just felt like that was a natural bookend, but I'm I'm happy to close it out as well. No.

Stephanie 44:34 I'll close it. That's totally fine. Right. Well, Tina, it has been an absolute pleasure to get to speak with you today. I have to say, I actually wanna listen to this podcast so that I can hear a lot of that again because I just feel like it there's so so much applicable stuff in there. So I really appreciate your time. It's been a great conversation.

Tina 44:54 I've enjoyed it very much myself. Thanks, guys.

Matt 44:56 And, Tina, if anybody wants to get ahold of you or maybe, um, look up any of your your previous work, where can they go to to reach out to you or find any of your your other, uh, famous quotes? your time. It's been a great conversation.

Tina 44:54 I've enjoyed it very much myself. Thanks, guys.

Matt 44:56 And, Tina, if anybody wants to get ahold of you or maybe, um, look up any of your your previous work, where can they go to to reach out to you or find any of your your other, uh, famous quotes?

Tina 45:10 So you can just go on LinkedIn. Um, I have all of my stuff pretty much posted there. I'm gonna get better about it. I have to figure out how to get better about that, um, because I'm I'm now doing more and more of these podcasts and loving them. So I have to figure out a way to get that a little more obviously available to folks on my profile. So I'll take that as a follow-up, Matt. But if for now, if everybody goes on to LinkedIn, they can connect with me there and, uh, all of the podcasts that I've done. I think most of them are LinkedIn there. LinkedIn on LinkedIn. No pun intended. LinkedIn.

Stephanie 45:43 Awesome. Well, thanks again for your time. We so appreciate it. Thank you. K.