Matt 0:00 Oh, uh, yeah. Alright. So now we're recording and we're good to go. And, Stephanie, are you opening this up? Yes. It's you. I am. Yeah. Tony, just so you know, like, we have a prerecorded intro and outro. So, like, there's, like, a whole, like, oh, this is the podcast and this is who we are. Yeah. All of that is built on. We don't need to go through that part.

Stephanie 0:19 Okay. I'm gonna grab a quick water. I'm so sorry.

Matt 0:22 I'll I That's fine. No worries. No worries at all.

Tanya 0:26 And just is the camera angle okay? I can't

Matt 0:28 Camera's perfect. Yeah. Okay. Compensation is really, really good. Um, yeah. Nice and clear and centered. I'm one to talk. I'm usually off centered. It drives

Tanya 0:37 I know. And I've got I've got some notes on the left hand side, so I hope I'm not, like, my

Matt 0:41 I honestly can't tell. However you're set up, it's it's in really good shape. I mean, you're you're you're front that's funny. We were talking about the same thing on our side. Like, you know, how do you optimize because you don't wanna look like you're reading, but at the same time

Unknown 0:53 Yeah.

Matt 0:54 You know, you don't wanna miss anything. No. It's it's looking really good.

Tanya 0:56 And I think Stephanie has the best back like, the best room background.

Matt 0:59 You can't beat it.

Tanya 0:59 Face it wall. Blurred.

Matt 1:02 You don't even wanna see what's going on back there. And it's Yeah.

Tanya 1:04 And mine is a wall because you don't wanna see what's on that side.

Matt 1:06 It looks good, though. The the color contrast is really good. It's looking looking groovy.

Unknown 1:11 One quick reminder. I forgot. Um, just make sure to mute notifications and all of that fun stuff, um, while we're while we're going through it. Alright. Whenever you're ready. Oh, we lost everything.

Stephanie 1:25 I'm back. I had to shut my door. I really am here. Okay. Are we are we're already recording. Right?

Matt 1:31 Yeah. Yeah. We're good.

Stephanie 1:35 Okay. Today, we're excited to welcome Tanya Pinto, principal UX researcher at Microsoft, focused on CoPilot AI for the Office Suite. Tanya is also the founder and president of Dall gotta do it again. Sorry, guys.

Tanya 1:52 Baldon.

Stephanie 1:53 Baldon. I yeah. Yep. Hi. Today, we're excited to welcome Tanya Pinto, principal UX researcher at Microsoft focused on Copilot AI for the Office Suite. Tanya is also the founder and president of Baldon Charities, which has helped provide food, education, and supplies to over 12,000 children around 14 countries.

Matt 2:16 Tanya's expertise spans branding, consumer insights, and UX research, shaping how AI transforms decision making. At Microsoft, she's influencing AI powered market research and user journey mapping.

Stephanie 2:31 Today, we'll dive into how AI is shaping work, the role of inclusive insights, and Tanya's experience founding and operating Balcon charities. Tanya, welcome to the Curiosity Current.

Tanya 2:42 Thank you so much. oft, she's influencing AI powered market research and user journey mapping.

Stephanie 2:31 Today, we'll dive into how AI is shaping work, the role of inclusive insights, and Tanya's experience founding and operating Balcon charities. Tanya, welcome to the Curiosity Current.

Tanya 2:42 Thank you so much.

Matt 2:46 Well, I'll get us, uh, started here. I mean, I I alluded to it in the intro. You know, you you have this career that, uh, has approached what we what we would refer to as as researchers as, like, social science, as as the study of people from so many different angles, you know, insights, UX, and also from, you know, this humanitarian space. I have done I I have to believe there's some there's something connecting all of that together for you. Right? Like, what is it that originally drew you to market research, UX? You know, how has how has your your interest in in humanitarian work played into that? Where's all this come from for you?

Tanya 3:30 Well, I think, you know, from a very young age, I think I was a journalist at heart. I always thought I would be a journalist or a reporter. I love telling stories. I love asking questions. I love talking to people. Um, my degree I grew up sort of all over the world. I did my degree at Curtin University in Perth, Australia, and I majored in journalism. And I saw journalism and sort of the art of asking questions and trying to get to the heart of a story is something very core to sort of what I really love doing. And I think that is the trait that has carried me through being in advertising where you're doing, you know, a lot of storytelling and,

Matt 4:07 you

Tanya 4:07 know, the qualitative side of advertising, which is account planning, finding out, you know, what makes people take, what would make them gravitate towards a brand, um, persona development, and then, you know, the humanitarian sector. Obviously, a little like, a lot of investigation to find out how to help children in need, how best to help them, how to develop models to where, you know, the money that US donors give doesn't just go, you know, go to waste, that it gets to kids that really need it and developing systems and then market research and UX research. And I'm loving UX research because I get to talk directly to people and conduct studies where I'm sort of just there one on one and really understanding what their experience is. So I think that's the thread.

Matt 4:49 It's so great. Like, one of the things we talk about a lot at AYTM, a lot of research agencies talk about is empathy, driving empathy, and, I mean, I think there's a propensity for it to feel a little bit like a buzzword. But it's so refreshing to hear that perspective. It's so refreshing to have that conversation. And just I think it helps remind us, like, why I think a lot of us have got have fallen into market research as a passion. Mhmm. Um, it's just the study of people because people are weird and fascinating and and endlessly surprise you. They only generate more questions. So that totally resonates.

Tanya 5:23 Absolutely. I think it helps remind us, like, why I think a lot of us have got have fallen into market research as a passion. Mhmm. Um, it's just the study of people because people are weird and fascinating and and endlessly surprise you. They only generate more questions. So that totally resonates. Absolutely.

Stephanie 5:25 Tanya, before we get into, like, the role of AI within the context of research, whether it be UX research or, you know, consumer insights more broadly, because you have worked on Copilot AI, I would be very curious to hear you talk about how AI is just transforming transforming more broadly just the modern workers' experience.

Tanya 5:50 Yeah. It's been it's been absolutely amazing. And, you know, I've been at Microsoft, um, almost eight years now, and I think it's the most significant thing that's happened in my career at Microsoft. It's just been absolutely transformative. Um, and it's just incredible what AI can do and what Copilot can do. I mean, I think the world changed a lot when COVID happened. We you know, I used to go to the campus every day, and now we're we're hybrid or we're on screens. And one of the most transformative things that I think Copilot enabled was Teams meeting summaries because a lot of us are in back to back calls, and then you finish the call, and there's the Copilot meeting summary with the action items. And it removed this cognitive load that I think many people didn't even know they were carrying because of the way work and the pace of meetings and screen time had changed things. Um, and so that's been just a personal delighter for me. It's just definitely using that. And I think just the opportunity that Copilot has given for for, you know, starting from scratch, um, for, you know, authoring and and and getting some help and coaching, changing the tone, personalizing something, the things that maybe, you know, are difficult in some ways, the the the written form. I think there's been a lot that Copilot has done to instill confidence and to make you feel like, oh, you know, I can I can push this project along? I have the tools that I need.

Stephanie 7:13 For sure. I love it that you you mentioned something that reminded me of the the sort of the blank page effect, right, and how how clutch a AI has been in sort of helping us overcome that in a lot of ways. Mhmm. Um, so now kinda moving more into the consumer insights and research and and and UX research space. One of the biggest challenges that we see for brands today in executing research is balancing, uh, speed and quality. Right? Speed and quality. It it's it's always gonna be those two big tension points. AI is something that has come in and promised, uh, to to sort of, you know, bring us that speed. Right? While that's happening, how do we ensure that that acceleration doesn't come at the cost of, you know, experimental or research rigor and also deep human understanding of of of our research, uh, participants? points. AI is something that has come in and promised, uh, to to sort of, you know, bring us that speed. Right? While that's happening, how do we ensure that that acceleration doesn't come at the cost of, you know, experimental or research rigor and also deep human understanding of of of our research, uh, participants?

Tanya 8:07 Yeah. I think, you know, AI is a tool. Um, just like Google or searching, you know, doing secondary research, I think these are all tools. These are things that can definitely increase efficiency and speed, but I believe you have to keep the human at the center and there has to and the rigor comes from, you know, bringing your worldview, your experience, um, your your empathy, looking at things with a critical eye, and applying your own analytical skills and not just trusting anything. I mean, you wouldn't go into research and just trust the words of just one respondent. Right? Like, you would get a number of different data points. I think triangulating different data, I think using mixed methods, I think you've got to sort of check, verify, be curious. I don't think you can just rely a % on just one thing. And having said that, there's some amazing things that are happening and amazing outputs that are high quality and truly transformative as well.

Matt 9:06 That's such a great point that, you know, this sort of traditional role of the researcher as, like, you know, keeper of the knowledge, keeper of the flame is really still there. It's just that there are more tools to consider. There's more maybe there's more complexity to consider as well. But yet, that role, like, fundamentally, you know, at least in your view and in ours, still very much exists. Maybe it's even more important today, like, because of these AI tools.

Tanya 9:33 It's actually more important. I think you need that discernment, that wisdom, that lived experience, and then you can put that along with these other tools and bring, you know, a more powerful package to the problem or solution to the problems you're encountering.

Matt 9:47 It's a great point. You you did mention at the same time, you know, taking this, like, trust but verify type of perspective, very wise. At the same time, you've seen things that have been, you know, delightfully surprising in terms of the outputs that AI tools have been able to create. Can you just walk us through, like, an example of, you know, what what has really surprised you, um, from the AI space recently?

Tanya 10:11 Um, I think a couple of examples have been, you know, uh, Microsoft's a global company, and my humanitarian work is global. And I work with a lot of people where English is a second language.

Matt 10:22 Mhmm. ple of, you know, what what has really surprised you, um, from the AI space recently?

Tanya 10:11 Um, I think a couple of examples have been, you know, uh, Microsoft's a global company, and my humanitarian work is global. And I work with a lot of people where English is a second language.

Matt 10:22 Mhmm.

Tanya 10:22 And I think that the the seamlessness with which AI is enabling, you know, um, language translation, uh, grammar, ensuring appropriate tone. I mean, I think these are things that are really valuable because if suddenly we had to conduct this podcast, this call, you know, speaking a language that wasn't our primary or native language, it would be really hard. And so that's been just very compelling for me to watch how it's really, like, brought confidence to people where English is a second language and they're using that. They're you know? And even if it takes them a few hacks to get around, you know, copying and pasting or figuring out the translation, it's come up over and over again, actually, in the work that I've done, not just, um, for my career, but just even with my charity work. It's just how people are using AI. Um, and I think another example is just the delight that ex it's experienced with creating things. So whether it's creating an image or writing a story or, um, just doing things for fun with AI, like, you know, bring me some recipes for baking or things I haven't thought about for

Unknown 11:26 gluten free baking. You know? All these things.

Tanya 11:28 Like, just the synthesis of information, the the speed at which and the nuance that you can put in to really personalize the ask. Like, you know, I'm preparing a dinner and two people are gluten free. Like, all these things that you can put in and you can kind of get this output that would have been very laborious and kind of taxing. I think that's been really that's been amazing to experience personally as a user and also just watch watch how how it's enabled a lot of people to kind of upskill and have confidence. Like, all these things that you can put in and you can kind of get this output that would have been very laborious and kind of taxing. I think that's been really that's been amazing to experience personally as a user and also just watch watch how how it's enabled a lot of people to kind of upskill and have confidence.

Matt 11:57 I love that. I I I love the the the, uh, uh, the perspective of of upskilling. And you've you've said it a couple times, confidence building, which is something I had never really thought about before this conversation. But, you know, like we were talking about Copilot earlier, it's it has, uh, like, those those after meeting summaries have been such an important part of, like, my day to day that it has taught me sort of the value of, like, you know, having a little bit of rigor there while also, to your point, taking a very laborious task and taking that completely off my hands. I think that, like, you know, there there's there's a lot of conversation around AI, like, in general right now about, uh, like, the original promise was that it's gonna do all of the dirty jobs so that we can focus on the art. You know? We can do we can do the things that bring us a lot of enjoyment. And then, like, recently, you know, like public sentiment, a little bit different, some concern around like, well, is this really what I want to be doing? Is this tool, like, really panning out the way we thought it to? But I think you just shared some great examples of like how it really is when deployed, you know, with this, like, this empathetic, intentional, um, uh, informed type of strategy. It really does become a, uh, a partner that that does all the things that you don't wanna do and lets you do the fun things, like like, bake your gluten free cookies, you know. I mean, I think that's just such a great point. Um, going back to research. Okay. So we, you know, we we talked about the positive side of things. Are there gaps? Like, if you're trying to plan a research strategy and you have these tools in your, you know, you have these these AI arrows in your quiver, so to speak, uh, but you also have your traditional methods as well. What are the gaps that you look for in in your AI tools that indicate to you that, okay, this is where maybe we wanna stay away from from an AI powered solution. We wanna go back to, you know, the traditional human driven approach. ows in your quiver, so to speak, uh, but you also have your traditional methods as well. What are the gaps that you look for in in your AI tools that indicate to you that, okay, this is where maybe we wanna stay away from from an AI powered solution. We wanna go back to, you know, the traditional human driven approach.

Tanya 14:00 I'm not sure that I have an example to share necessarily on that. Um, but what I would just say is that I tend not to look at the gaps, but I tend to have the starting point that I can use different things for different purposes. Right? And just like, you know, you you open a Word doc to maybe write something long form, but then you prepare a PowerPoint deck when you're in a meeting, you know, for for presenting. I think, um, um, it's just very much looking at all the tools that are available as doing sometimes very specific things, and you have to choose. You you get to decide what you use when and where and to what extent. And sometimes, as we've talked about, it's a really helpful jumping off point to get me started. If you're kind of, like, staring at that blank page, you're like, I don't even know where to go with this. Sometimes it's an amazing polishing tool. We just wrapped up that meeting. We did a five hour off-site, and, wow, Teams, you know, Copilot made the meeting notes. That would

Unknown 14:56 have taken me a week to write those meeting notes,

Tanya 14:59 right, like, for a very long meeting. So I think you just have to know when to use it and and play with it and and and see what works for your own personal workflow and also, you know, what serves, uh, your clients, your customers, uh, you know, to to make their experience good with you too.

Matt 15:17 It's a great point.

Stephanie 15:19 Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. I kinda want to go back to something that you both have hit on here to talk about, you know, AI as a tool, and it's, you know, Matt, to use your words. Right? It's doing our dirty work for us. And and in some cases, that is true. It's not the dirty work. It's the executional work. Right?

Matt 15:35 Yes.

Stephanie 15:36 Do you have any advice, Tanya, for, like, how researchers UX researchers should be redeploying their time? Right? So when we think about it's gonna take up the laborious stuff that maybe didn't, you know, tap into your, you know, your experience and and your top skills. What how how should we be deploying that time? Where should we focus on making sure that what we're producing is the best that it can be? loying their time? Right? So when we think about it's gonna take up the laborious stuff that maybe didn't, you know, tap into your, you know, your experience and and your top skills. What how how should we be deploying that time? Where should we focus on making sure that what we're producing is the best that it can be?

Tanya 16:06 Well, I think, um, I think when it comes to the art and science of research, I think we all have sort of the phases in which we plan work. And a colleague of mine, Wes Hatcher, like, he came up with, you know, a UX sort of workflow of the stages that you go through from exploring the problem, to planning the research, to preparing for it and what goes into that, to recruitment, to conducting and executing the research, and then reporting the insights. So that's sort of a workflow that has definite stages. And I think a good practice is to look at each stage of work and think about how you can leverage AI or choose not to. Um, I actually would also like to say that that AI is not only for the admin work or the dirty work, right, that you don't wanna do. No.

Stephanie 16:50 It's not.

Tanya 16:51 Yeah. Very powerful thing. It can since it's like, there's big data, there's all these things that AI can do. I don't think we've even tapped the power you know, the full full extent of the power of it. But I think that it just if I was just, you know, about to start a research study, as you plan and you look at each phase, it would be a good practice to think about how and where you could use some of the AI tools that are out there, whether, you know, whether it's a niche tool or it's something that's, you know, like that Teams meeting that I keep going back to. But I think there's ways to do it and to do it, um, intentionally is what I would like to say. Yep.

Unknown 17:30 Right. Makes sense.

Matt 17:37 So these little awkward pauses are, like, one of those things that

Stephanie 17:41 I'll be gone.

Unknown 17:42 Yeah.

Matt 17:42 And this is my fault because I Stephanie, are you are you going to do the um, or was that your revision of of this question here? Mhmm. It was. Alright. I like that. I like that take. That that was, uh, that was different. Okay. Um,

Unknown 18:00 I don't really think I have

Matt 18:01 a follow-up on that I, like, I don't I honestly I I just I think that that's a great place to to to end it. So I don't know, Stephanie, if you just wanna roll into, um, your question on, um, accessibility. Yeah. I think that's a really good one. ay. Um,

Unknown 18:00 I don't really think I have

Matt 18:01 a follow-up on that I, like, I don't I honestly I I just I think that that's a great place to to to end it. So I don't know, Stephanie, if you just wanna roll into, um, your question on, um, accessibility. Yeah. I think that's a really good one.

Stephanie 18:16 Yeah. I like this one. Okay. Okay. Uh, so, Tanya, there's also been a lot of conversation. We certainly, uh, talk about this a lot here at AYTM around AI democratizing insights, um, making research more I'm gonna start over. Okay. Can you mute this cycle? So, Tanya, there's also been a lot of conversation around AI democratization. Right? It's democratizing insights and making it sort of within the realm and reachable for nonresearchers, people like brand managers and product managers and, uh, you know, other people who are research adjacent but do not sit in that field very directly. Overall, do you see this as, like, a net positive, or do you see, like, worries about insights being misinterpreted by teams that don't have that sort of formal interpretation training somewhere in between pros and cons? Like, what's your what's your perspective on that? cent but do not sit in that field very directly. Overall, do you see this as, like, a net positive, or do you see, like, worries about insights being misinterpreted by teams that don't have that sort of formal interpretation training somewhere in between pros and cons? Like, what's your what's your perspective on that?

Tanya 19:14 I mean, I I think it's a wonderful thing if we can all get smarter and we can all learn. And I think there's definitely a different level of conversation when you come into to the room where somebody has studied up on things and they have a higher order of questions to ask because they've done their research or they've used you know, or they said, hey. I think these are the insights or I've used this tool, and what do you think? So I think, again, it upskills. It uplevels the conversation on both sides. I think it it forces us as researchers to hone our craft and be really precise and really know you know, really understand how we can land land impact with our insights. Um, and I think it's also actually a good relationship building tool because if if, let's say, you know, um, somebody is seeing something else and they've they've they've come to that through whether they're using their own analytical tools or AI or whatever and and you see something different, it it makes for a great conversation. Right? It makes for how do we solve this together and what are we missing? And we can all have blind spots. And I think, you know, there are things where, you know, if I've sat sat on hours and hours of research and I'm trying to build the story and I'm like, oh, I think the insight is this, and somebody fresh looks at that and says, oh, you know, did you realize that they were actually saying that? It's like, oh, wow. Like, you need you know, I love multiple perspectives. I think it goes back to my roots in journalism. You never just get one source. Right? So I think I think the more sources we have, the stronger it makes us all. I think, um, you know, we all rise when we have more access to the tools and information and data, and I would want that democratization to continue. I've seen the power of that. I think it's it's amazing. Um, and I think that the AI will enable enable, you know, people who maybe were actually also stuck in certain roles, um, to also bring more to what they have to do because maybe now they're not stuck just making those meeting notes, so they're able to free up time to be more creative and bring a different dimension to their work.

Stephanie 21:21 For sure. How can leaders, whether they're research leaders or product leaders, but how do they empower their teams to take this sort of cross functional approach to we're all bringing some expertise, we're all leveraging tools, automation, AI to bring together that sort of holistic decision making that you're talking about? re. How can leaders, whether they're research leaders or product leaders, but how do they empower their teams to take this sort of cross functional approach to we're all bringing some expertise, we're all leveraging tools, automation, AI to bring together that sort of holistic decision making that you're talking about?

Tanya 21:42 I mean, I think some of the best leaders and managers I've worked for have always created a space for learning. They've always had a very intentional space that they give you their employee, um, to say, you know, take x amount of time and learn something. Go do that training course, or we're going to have, you know, no meeting Fridays, and that will give you space for focus time so you can try that tool out or you can do a little experiment. And I think when leaders do that and don't make learning something that you have to do in your own time or after hours and you're just struggling to keep up with everything that's out there, you know, it can change it can change the trajectory of your whole career. And I think I've been really blessed to have a lot of wonderful leaders that have enabled growth. You know, at Microsoft, we talk a lot about growth mindset and that notion of, like, you know, I'm not an expert yet. But when you can have growth mindset, but creating space for learning and development and training is actually, I think, something the the best thing a leader can do, especially in this environment where things are changing so fast. AI I mean, the the pace of of technology and all these tools, everything is it's literally changing week by week. So we need space to grow and to learn.

Stephanie 22:55 We really do. That's such a great they're great callouts.

Matt 23:00 It is. I'm I'm I'm curious, Tanya. Thinking about I mean, this this is a question we always ask. What are the next five years look like? So I mean, I I think you're you're really close and we we've hit on some some key themes of, you know, the partnership between a human and an AI and what that looks like today and the positive side of it and some watch outs as well. How do you see that changing over the next five years? What's it what's it gonna look like? What would this conversation look like five years from now? Probably not gonna

Tanya 23:32 Probably not gonna be able to comment on.

Matt 23:35 That's fine. We don't have to.

Tanya 23:37 Yeah. We

Matt 23:38 can cut it out.

Tanya 23:38 Yeah. Yeah. I think anything predictive or like like, I'm not authorized to speak on on that. Yeah.

Matt 23:45 That's fine. Yeah. We can cut that out. Yeah.

Stephanie 23:48 I'll do it. This will just be an AI. A AI is talking to AIs.

Matt 23:52 That's right. Kidding.

Stephanie 23:54 We won't be here at all.

Unknown 23:55 Yeah. Yeah. Talking to bots. orized to speak on on that. Yeah.

Matt 23:45 That's fine. Yeah. We can cut that out. Yeah.

Stephanie 23:48 I'll do it. This will just be an AI. A AI is talking to AIs.

Matt 23:52 That's right. Kidding.

Stephanie 23:54 We won't be here at all.

Unknown 23:55 Yeah. Yeah. Talking to bots.

Matt 23:57 Yep. Somebody was it was it Jess actually? Somebody pointed this out to me because we were actually talking about the, uh, the output from from one of those team summaries. And, uh, they were like, there's gonna be a day in the future where you just are directed in your work by an AI. And AI is like, hey. This is what the AI has discussed. Oh, yeah. It was because I had joined a call and the only people on the call were people's AI note takers and me. And I was like, what if the note takers could talk to each other based on, you know, the topic of the call and then you get the notes back after the call? Basically, you're going to have the AI strategizing your workload, and then you just get, like, your list of follow ups at the end. How amazing would that be? It'd be kinda scary, but it'd be amazing. Right?

Unknown 24:46 Yeah.

Matt 24:48 Yeah. That is the future we we will not comment on. Um, okay. Well, then let's just, uh, make a hard left and talk about the charity then. Does that is that the right time to do it now? And then we have those couple of closing questions that are a little bit more like, again, insights focused. But alright. I'll do that then. Alright. So, Etanya, I wanna make a quick 90 degree turn and just make sure we carve out some time for you to talk about your charity work because it's obviously something that's been really important to you, really important to your career, but also just just interpersonally. So we'd love to hear more about that. hen. Alright. So, Etanya, I wanna make a quick 90 degree turn and just make sure we carve out some time for you to talk about your charity work because it's obviously something that's been really important to you, really important to your career, but also just just interpersonally. So we'd love to hear more about that.

Tanya 25:21 Yeah. So I started my charity, Baldan, which means, uh, to give to children or donation to children in Hindi. Um, I started almost twenty years ago. My grandfather was a orphan. And because, you know, somebody took him and his brother and put put him in school, actually, he ended up being very successful in his lifetime. He won the equivalent of an Oscar. He won a a film fair award in India for being a documentary filmmaker. So in my own family, you know, the cycle of poverty was broken in one generation because an orphan child got to go to school. And I think that enabling children and catching them really early in life and making sure that they have, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food, shelter, protection, education, clean water, nutrition, it really stabilizes a child such that even if they're born into places with extreme poverty or, you know, really terrible circumstances that those foundational years, if you can help them then, it really mitigates a lot of problems down the line. And so I had this passion for orphans, for helping children. I went and took a sabbatical from my job at the time in advertising and looked at mother Teresa's orphanage in Calcutta, India and the home for the dying. It totally changed my life. And when I came back, started a five zero one c three, and my friends and colleagues in the advertising world started, you know, donating money. Um, and I sort of joke that I'm the world's worst fundraiser. I did not know what I was doing. I didn't know anything about running a nonprofit. Um, I've sort of held a full time job along the way and done this on the side. Um, but my model has never changed, which is I do a lot of research. I try to find the grassroots organizations that are working in very difficult context and helping children that are sort of missed by the larger safety nets. And a lot of these small organizations, grassroots organizations, are run by amazing women who just decided to do something in their community and say, I'm gonna take in these street children, or I'm gonna start a program for after school care or do something, and I raise money to help them. And because I have a full time job and because everybody involved in the charity is a working professional, Um, nearly a % of every dollar that we raise goes directly to help children, and we help children with food. We every day, we probably feed over a thousand children living in orphanages and in the care of special centers. Um, we've done everything from build wells, built lots of toilets and latrines because I'm a huge believer in good sanitation and hygiene, and we've done amazing things when there's been times of crisis. Um, so right now, you know, and over the last year or so, the market research community has gotten together and helped raise money that has enabled us to help more than twelve hundred children in Ethiopia suffering from severe malnutrition, children who would have otherwise probably died after they've been have had a critical intervention at health clinic because of conflict, climate change, um, and environmental factors have caused them to not have adequate food access. And so we're helping these children directly. And because I spent five years sort of consulting and doing a lot of consulting in the humanitarian space, I have some amazing contacts in that world, um, that enable me to try to get to these organizations that you probably would never have heard of. But they're on the ground. They're helping quietly, humbly, and they're really helping, um, children in a very impactful way. ng a lot of consulting in the humanitarian space, I have some amazing contacts in that world, um, that enable me to try to get to these organizations that you probably would never have heard of. But they're on the ground. They're helping quietly, humbly, and they're really helping, um, children in a very impactful way.

Matt 28:37 That's such incredible work. I I I don't even have a follow-up. What, um, uh, if someone wants to learn more about Baladan, what's the best way for them to learn more about the mission and, uh, perhaps contribute?

Tanya 28:48 Yeah. Find us online. We have a website, you know, baladan.com. You can also, uh, add me on LinkedIn. I do a lot of posts about, you know, where the money goes. Um, we have a Facebook page, Instagram page. Um, and like I said, it's I think it's it's really been amazing to see how the research community in the last couple of years have come together to support Baldan. Um, I think as researchers, you know, we want evidence. We wanna know that what we're doing is working, and I am no different. And so if I'm going to, you know, donate, uh, my money or I'm gonna figure out, like, okay. I wanna help these kids. I wanna know what's really making an impact, and that's really been what I've I've I've tried to do since I started this organization. And Baldon is not a big charity. Probably haven't heard of it maybe until this call, and that's okay. But, um, um, what I know is that we are making an impact. We're making a difference. And if you're going to give money, whether it's $20 or $2,000, we'll actually make a difference to children who really need the help. And, hopefully, we'll go on to have, you know, good, stable, bright futures because they were invested in early in life.

Matt 29:51 Amazing.

Stephanie 29:51 I love it. And such a great example of growth mindset in action just like we were talking about earlier. You were like, I didn't know anything about doing this, but I did it. Right? Like

Tanya 30:00 yeah. And I'm still learning, and I still don't know. And I have a lot of wonderful people advising me and and and guiding me and, you know, experts I tap into. And I do as much research now as I did where I'm I'm talking to people, you know, at bigger NGOs saying, should I do this? Should I enter this territory? You know, what's the best thing to do? Should we not do this? Um, so so, yeah, I'm still learning, and it it there's it's it's it's it's a mission. It's a calling for me, and, hopefully, it's something I'll never stop doing.

Stephanie 30:27 I love that. Um, well, to bring us back to the wonderful world of of consumer insights and and research, um, Um, looking to the future, this is a question that we kinda like to to ask everybody who comes onto the pod. What's one under the radar AI trend that you think people maybe aren't paying, uh, enough attention to yet but should be? And this may be another one that you can't answer. onsumer insights and and research, um, Um, looking to the future, this is a question that we kinda like to to ask everybody who comes onto the pod. What's one under the radar AI trend that you think people maybe aren't paying, uh, enough attention to yet but should be? And this may be another one that you can't answer.

Tanya 30:51 Um, no. I think I think I don't know if it's a trend, but it's a behavior that I've just seen anecdotally. So not even in my work life, but just anecdotally, is that, um, AI as a coach. So AI being used to kind of help with skilling or, you know, reframe something and that back and forth where it's it's really enabling, um, you know, a problem to be solved. And I think that's something that's very interesting. So I don't know what to call that trend, but it's it's I think it's you know, as a teacher, as a coach, it's it's providing some sort of a learning and skilling that I think is very valuable. Um, and I think people will do more with that. And I I myself was just interested just to, like, oh, if I wanted to learn another language, I wonder if, you know, there is an AI language learning app or something. Like, I wonder if there's gonna be different ways of learning that come through because of this this ability, this technology.

Stephanie 31:58 Yeah. Absolutely. No. That's a great one.

Matt 32:02 I could definitely see that. I mean, as as people's trust, familiarity, you know, the they start to kinda, like, almost develop a a relationship with their, you know, favorite AI tool, chatbots, whatever it is that they're using. Could absolutely see that, uh, becoming the case. You know, you you start to go maybe not like we're talking about earlier, not just there for the dirty work, but also, you know, as a thought partner where it is maybe today for bouncing ideas off of. And it sounds like what you're saying in the future, maybe it even kinda goes beyond, like, the the singular transaction and is able to help you again, upskill another theme that's kinda come out of today. I love that. If okay. So if if you're a market researcher, a user experience research leader, um, and you are trying to make sure that your team, uh, that your organization is staying up to date on all things AI is doing the right things to make sure, uh, you know, that that, uh, AI is being utilized effectively and efficiently. Um, what's the what's the mindset change that needs to happen to do that? So, you know, maybe not specific to the the the tools or the planning, but what needs to happen kinda, like, internally in order to make best use of all of AI tools that are available? t that, uh, AI is being utilized effectively and efficiently. Um, what's the what's the mindset change that needs to happen to do that? So, you know, maybe not specific to the the the tools or the planning, but what needs to happen kinda, like, internally in order to make best use of all of AI tools that are available?

Tanya 33:21 I think on a personal level, it's, um, having excitement and curiosity and understanding that you might have to change your habits or change the way you do things, um, you know, to enter a prompt or to go to something else instead of starting in one place. Maybe you start from a different place or source. So I think it's being open to habit change and being curious about that. And I think as we've talked about from a organizational or leadership level, it's carving out space and time very intentionally for your team to learn and to experiment. And I think that there is a lot I I want to stress this word of experimentation or pilot testing. I think, you know, take baby steps and try something and make it okay for that sometimes it doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you might not get a good output, and that needs to be safe and okay. And don't throw the whole thing away because you didn't get one, you know, one good experience because the technology is developing. It's being iterated on. It's it's it's going to be different a year from now. But I think having that mindset of, you know, I'm gonna keep trying this. I'm gonna carve out time to try this, and I'm gonna make my organization have a culture of safety around trying new tools, trying new things, maybe failing, failing fast. You know? I think these are all things that are important, um, and not putting so much pressure because there are a lot of you know, I've I've encountered it. Like, there are people who are still afraid of sometimes AI. There are people who who don't have a comfort with with doing that, and I think you've got to bring a lot of people along at their own pace.

Matt 34:58 Such great advice. Such a great point.

Stephanie 35:01 For sure. And I think part of that safety is not just about, uh, you know, safety to fail, but also safety to know that this is not about taking your job. This is about enhancing your Absolutely. Right?

Tanya 35:12 Absolutely. We're still very much needed. I really believe that. And Yeah. I think there's like I said, it's like research. Right? Like, I think there's an art and science to research. You don't there's the human element. There's the curiosity about people, and it's all you know? And it's even in a conversation like this, it's the nonverbal cues. It's it's not just reading the transcript that might have been produced from the meeting. It's like what happened with our energy, our body language

Unknown 35:38 Yeah.

Tanya 35:38 Um, our tone. You know? There's so many things that we're we're still very much needed for.

Matt 35:44 The fundamentals are still very much in place. Yeah. You're right.

Tanya 35:47 Absolutely. Yeah. . It's like what happened with our energy, our body language

Unknown 35:38 Yeah.

Tanya 35:38 Um, our tone. You know? There's so many things that we're we're still very much needed for.

Matt 35:44 The fundamentals are still very much in place. Yeah. You're right.

Tanya 35:47 Absolutely. Yeah.

Matt 35:49 Well, I love it. Well, uh, again, our conversation today was with Tanya Pinto, principal UX researcher at Microsoft. Tanya, thank you so much for your time. This was a great conversation. We're so glad you were able to join us today.

Tanya 36:00 Absolutely. So much, Matt and Stephanie. Uh, thank you so much, uh, to the team. It's been a pleasure talking to you all.

Matt 36:07 Likewise. Alright. That was great.

Unknown 36:14 Do you

Matt 36:14 wanna come back?

Unknown 36:15 Do you wanna join?

Matt 36:17 That was so great.

Tanya 36:17 Come back. Just give me the T shirt.

Matt 36:19 That's right.

Stephanie 36:20 We're not gonna give you the T shirt no matter what. Yeah. No. Gonna go really well.

Tanya 36:24 And, actually, I was gonna say, I don't know how like, I don't know much about what you do, but if you are, you know, at clerks or other conferences, I'm also open to being on a panel or doing a co you know, like, with other people that that you might have. I'm certainly not an expert, but I love to be part of conversations. And so just consider me like a side buddy if you want. Like, you can always

Stephanie 36:44 We will. We love to hear that.

Unknown 36:46 Yeah. Yeah. Y'all jump in careful what you ask for.

Matt 36:49 Yeah. I was just gonna say always two people from the growth team on the call, so you're they're gonna hear from us now for sure. Yeah.

Tanya 36:55 I can't you know, I don't wanna get in trouble with Microsoft. Like, I can't, you know, act as an endorser or or that type of a thing, but I can be in certain conversations, and, um, and I'll be at Quirks, uh, probably I'm trying to figure out a ball down event at Quirks, actually, for July in New York. Oh, cool. Now can even plan something for that, uh, something joint or if there's a panel or just something you're doing, that would be fun.

Matt 37:18 Um, this thing, I I honestly think that there's there there is something so resonating with with that connection. I mean, it's not that's not hopefully, like, belittling it all to your humanitarian work. But, like, I encounter this so many times in people who have Again, like I say, they always say, I fell into research because I was doing like, you know, something else. And at the core of it, you track it all the way back and it always comes back to this like empathy for people. Like, this just interest in in understanding and helping people have a better experience with something. I I I don't know if you've if you've interacted at all with the Quirks team yet, but I bet that they would love that idea. I mean

Tanya 37:58 There's definitely something there. And I I you know, because it's a public podcast we're doing, I didn't wanna speak about other people, but I'll just nce with something. I I I don't know if you've if you've interacted at all with the Quirks team yet, but I bet that they would love that idea. I mean There's definitely something there. And I I you know, because it's a public podcast we're doing, I didn't wanna speak about other people, but I'll just

Matt 38:05 ask

Tanya 38:05 you off the record. Don't use this. Yeah. But, like, I mean, my my skip level manager leader, I mean, she worked in a lab. She worked, like she she studied, like, child psychology, and she's now the leader of part like, UX research at Microsoft.

Matt 38:21 That's really great.

Tanya 38:22 Um, some of the people I've worked with have come from wildly different backgrounds, and they are amazing. And how they landed in UX research on office product like, who knows? You know? Totally. Yeah. I have never I I I just think it's amazing how people fall into research.

Unknown 38:40 Yeah.

Tanya 38:40 And I think if you did a survey, like, even at quirks, if you did, like, a booth survey, like, what did you actually study at school? I bet, like, 80% of the people walking by your booth would not say research or

Stephanie 38:51 research. All the time. We're all, like, anthropologists, and I'm a psychologist. Like, yeah, we all just are people fascinated with human behavior. Right? Yeah.

Tanya 39:00 Academics. I mean, yeah. There is one guy who literally was in the school system, public education, and then

Stephanie 39:06 I love that.

Tanya 39:07 You know what I mean? Like, there's so many different backgrounds. So I think that is a nugget of a really fun topic, and I think you could have a lot of, um, you could have a lot of fun with it. Um, you know, so I I definitely think you should capture that somewhere. And if it doesn't end up in a live session, maybe even an article for quirks or one of the publications Sure. That could be cool.

Unknown 39:28 That's a

Matt 39:29 great thought. That's we're we're gonna get our wheels turning on that. I I love that.

Unknown 39:34 Yeah. And, again,

Matt 39:35 just genuinely, thank you so much for time. Is there anything you didn't get a chance to talk about that the editors could splice in or anything?

Tanya 39:41 No. But I think that, Stephanie, I think one of the questions you asked that it sort of also sparked sort of topic number two or three. I think I think there is a topic around leadership and culture change because I think that, you know, AI is gonna require an investment. I think any new tool. Right? Like, back in the day, my boss would say, you are going to this conference, and we're going to pay, and it's like a special thing for you to do. You know? Mhmm. Yeah. I think as the world has become more virtual, you know, I know we don't travel anymore for work. Like, we don't have I don't travel anymore for research. We just do everything on teams. And

Matt 40:16 Yeah. his conference, and we're going to pay, and it's like a special thing for you to do. You know? Mhmm. Yeah. I think as the world has become more virtual, you know, I know we don't travel anymore for work. Like, we don't have I don't travel anymore for research. We just do everything on teams. And Yeah.

Tanya 40:17 The way people are learning and growing and networking has changed a lot. So I think that there was something in the way you asked the question, which was really wonderful about, like, how can you enable space? How can leadership enable growth? You know? Because we're not learning in the way that I certainly did early in my career. You know? I I think things have changed a lot, and I and I feel for the younger people coming into the practice. It's like, how are they gonna network like this? And maybe they'll never get to travel the way we did, you know, three cities in one week, like, back in the day. Like like, how are they going to develop some of the things that a different generation of researchers were able to do? Yeah.

Matt 40:59 Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great point. I mean, it it just, like, elevates the importance of, like, finding ways to not lose the the human in the in the everyday interactions and the tools that we build. Like, that's such a great point. I've I've had that thought. There there are people entering the workforce right now that have never had it that have never sat in a physical office with their colleagues, and that's just wild to think that.

Tanya 41:19 They've never sat in a physical office, and they, um, and their reliance on the tools is quite fascinating. You know? They they know how to use everything, but they have other gaps in in anxiety and, you know, and and things like that where, you know, they they probably they probably need other types of training or enablement as there's more and more AI and more and more screen time. And I do think that, uh, it's tough to it's tough to see that sometimes. I see they're so smart. I mean, we hire some of such smart kids, like, honestly. Like, they blow my mind.

Matt 41:58 Yeah.

Tanya 41:59 But they don't have some of the things that I think we have from coming just literally from a little generational, you know, like Right. Shift, and we had the pre COVID world for our competitors.

Stephanie 42:12 And and they're not gonna get that unless it is mandated and sanctioned and provided for them by leadership and by the culture of your company. It's such a great point.

Unknown 42:22 Yeah.

Tanya 42:23 Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, uh, I don't know. I I didn't even ask you both where you're based, but, um, have where are you based?

Stephanie 42:31 I'm based in Dallas. By the way,

Unknown 42:32 I saw that

Stephanie 42:33 you spent some time there.

Tanya 42:34 And Oh, yeah. My whole family is there. I'm from Dallas. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To Seattle Eight Years ago. Yeah.

Matt 42:40 I'm in Columbus, Ohio. I'm from Detroit originally. Okay. But, yeah, I'm in Ohio now. nown: I saw that

Stephanie 42:33 you spent some time there.

Tanya 42:34 And Oh, yeah. My whole family is there. I'm from Dallas. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To Seattle Eight Years ago. Yeah.

Matt 42:40 I'm in Columbus, Ohio. I'm from Detroit originally. Okay. But, yeah, I'm in Ohio now.

Tanya 42:45 Yeah. So, like, I think, you know, Seattle is very different to Dallas. I've been to Columbus, Ohio, but I think if I were just to was to compare Dallas, I think the it's more of a bubble. I think the weather here is it has it creates an environment where it sort of encourages more introverted behavior in a way, like, dark and cold and rainy, and you just huddle in. And when I moved here, I was like, who wants to go to lunch? Like, I was all this person from Dallas. I'm like, what's the cool restaurant? And everyone's like, what are you talking about? I'm at my desk, and I'm not going to talk to you. You know? It was a very big culture change. And I do see that that and then COVID happened, and Microsoft was this bustling campus. We all went to work. We were I had to move from Dallas. They would not let me work through my

Stephanie 43:33 car from Dallas. Yeah.

Tanya 43:34 Forced me to move. And you couldn't even get a parking spot. And now it's, like, empty rows of empty cubes. I go in three, four times a week because I like the practice of going in, but it's very different. And I just yeah. And I talked to some of the younger people on the team. I'm like, do you wanna come in? They're like, no.

Matt 43:58 It Right.

Tanya 43:58 They're headphones, and they're hunkered

Stephanie 44:00 down. Yep.

Tanya 44:01 Yep. Yep. Yep. They've never met anybody in person. And I don't know if that's good. You know? Like Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, I don't know if this is a good thing sometimes, but here

Matt 44:11 it is. Real FaceTime is is tough to recreate.

Tanya 44:16 Yeah. I think I think the younger again, I didn't wanna say this on the camera, but I do I I think how we are learning and and how we are teaching our younger younger people coming into the profession

Matt 44:29 Yeah.

Tanya 44:29 If they really are interested in humans, they're gonna have to have a bit more human contact. A little

Stephanie 44:34 bit more human contact. Yeah. That'd be part of it. I love that part of it.

Tanya 44:38 Okay. Well, let me know any next steps. And then, Jessica, I don't know. Thank you so much for all your support, but, like, for social media and sharing and whatever, just tell me what to do, and I'll do it. And and how long will this take to become be posted or you know? Just let me know. art of it. Okay. Well, let me know any next steps. And then, Jessica, I don't know. Thank you so much for all your support, but, like, for social media and sharing and whatever, just tell me what to do, and I'll do it. And and how long will this take to become be posted or you know? Just let me know.

Unknown 44:53 Of course. Yeah. We'll we'll definitely be in touch with all of the promotional materials. Right now, we're actually looking at, like, early May to publish, so we've got some time. But we'll send you everything ahead of time Yeah. For approvals and all of that if you need it. Will you need just, uh, so I can jot down will you need to get anything approved, uh, by Microsoft, or or we are we just good to post as long as we let you know ahead of time?

Tanya 45:21 You need to let me know ahead of time, but I think we're good because I did not mention anything proprietary or confidential. Everything I mentioned was very, like, in the public public realm. So I think that we're good. Um, and I think as long as like, when you say my title, as long as you put, like, Balzan and Microsoft, I think that gives me also a little bit more coverage because they know I'm not just rep like, I'm not just talking about Microsoft. The the the conversation was multidimensional. So you don't don't lead with, like, this was only about Microsoft and AI because that it's that's not really what we talked about. We talked about a

Unknown 45:54 bunch of things. Absolutely. Yeah. We can make sure that that happens. And we'll I'll make a note to give you as much lead time as possible on the, um, materials just so you can get them ahead of time.

Matt 46:06 Yeah. I was gonna say and then, um, the same for just, like let's just take, like, a little added level of scrutiny of anything, uh, where we happen to mention Microsoft for the company, for the editors, uh, and, you know, we'll just we'll just maybe play it a little bit closer, um, to make sure nothing, you know Yeah. Proprietary or anything sneaks in there. Yeah.

Tanya 46:25 I I hope I didn't I don't think I said anything. I but just, yeah, take another loop. You know?

Unknown 46:31 Yep. Yep.

Matt 46:33 Alright. Well, great.

Unknown 46:35 And and we'll be in touch for quirks. I'm very excited about that. So I will loop you in with, um, Molly on our team who organizes a lot of the speaking sessions. So keep a keep an eye out for that as well.

Tanya 46:48 I will. And and she can even copy, like, Steve Quirk, you know, because we're brainstorming like, we're actually brainstorming right now, like, what to do for Balvan or what to do for a session, that type of a thing. Um, and then, uh, if either of you are ever in Seattle, please let me know. I'd love to have you to the campus and have lunch. And

Matt 47:04 Oh my goodness.

Tanya 47:05 Stephanie would love to meet you next time I'm in Dallas. I come back.

Stephanie 47:07 Yes. Let me know. See my

Tanya 47:09 parents, my dog, see everybody.

Stephanie 47:11 So Yeah. Yeah. now. I'd love to have you to the campus and have lunch. And

Matt 47:04 Oh my goodness.

Tanya 47:05 Stephanie would love to meet you next time I'm in Dallas. I come back.

Stephanie 47:07 Yes. Let me know. See my

Tanya 47:09 parents, my dog, see everybody.

Stephanie 47:11 So Yeah. Yeah.

Tanya 47:13 Yeah. But thank you. You made my day. So thank you so much. This was wonderful opportunity. I really appreciate

Unknown 47:19 it. So much fun.

Stephanie 47:20 Same. Yeah.

Matt 47:21 Take care.

Unknown 47:22 Bye now. Bye. Did, um, did we want to try I thought we were. Did Matt just piece out of here, Jess? He did. I can message him to try to get him back.

Stephanie 47:45 Uh, for things were eleven this week. Jessica, what are we gonna call this?

Unknown 47:50 I don't know. Um, I think we liked the, um, I'm blanking. Let me message Trevor. He'll know what we landed on.

Stephanie 48:10 He's coming back.

Unknown 48:11 Oh, good. Hey. That was so great. I love her.

Stephanie 48:17 Yeah. I see that every time. But, I mean, how great was that? She wants to present at parks. Like, that was amazing.

Unknown 48:32 I love the empathy angle too. That's such a good, um, through line.

Matt 48:39 No. I did not totally forget that we were gonna do this segment. How dare you guys accuse me of forgetting that we were gonna do this segment today. I definitely remembered.

Unknown 48:46 Did you did you find anything?

Matt 48:49 Oh, no. I I know what what my original thing was, Stephanie. I just I don't know, like, uh, I mean, I don't think we need any prep. What I was gonna do I don't know if you remember when we chatted about it, but I wanna just talk about complexity theory, which is not like even like I don't even like I can't even go like that deep on it. But, um, that is this concept of when you are, you know, uh, trying to understand a problem, um, that I just heard my door open. That, um Baby.

Stephanie 49:19 Teeth coming in.

Matt 49:21 He'll do it, man. He's gonna be early early walker and early talker.

Stephanie 49:24 He always are the second kids. um, that is this concept of when you are, you know, uh, trying to understand a problem, um, that I just heard my door open. That, um Baby. Teeth coming in.

Matt 49:21 He'll do it, man. He's gonna be early early walker and early talker.

Stephanie 49:24 He always are the second kids.

Matt 49:26 That's he I swear he's already, like, vocalizing so much more than Jasper. So weird. Um, where was I going with that? It's just this notion that when you are trying to solve a problem, you first need to take a step back and understand if this is a simple problem that can be understood through classical, like, I'm not gonna get too philosophical on it, but like classical Western means, which is, like, where I think a lot of us who are in research, that's where we like to be. Like, show me the experiment. I'm gonna build the design. I'm gonna develop a hypothesis. I'm gonna prove it or disprove it. And all of the and what complexity theory forces you to do is to reevaluate a problem and truly, uh, decide whether or not all of those things are knowable and or under your control. And if they are not, you need to approach it very differently, which is for a much more, um, I I I won't say this, but, like, inspired by by, like, Eastern philosophy, understanding, discussion, like, empathy. Um, and it hits at this, like, importance of making that acknowledgement upfront and, uh, really a lot of, like, what we're just talking about with with Tanya, which is, like, under like, having a discussion and being able to pick up on all of the the nuance and and coming to a a truly, um, like, a a foundational understanding of things. So that's that's what I was gonna talk about. I don't know what you were gonna talk about.

Stephanie 50:58 A book. I'm just making a couple quick notes. Look at this. Sapiens. And I have a whole story about how yeah. I just have a little it's just a little blurb that I can that's that's making me happy. And all it is is that, you know, I I was coming back from quirks, and I love quirks, but quirks is really about the business of consumer insights and the business and market research. And as I was coming home, I was, you know, lured in by the bookshop as I often am and picked up this book. It's not new, but they just released a tenth anniversary version of it by Yuval Noah Harari. And Wow. It's just all about what makes humans unique. And This is perfect.

Unknown 51:41 It's the opposite side of, like, the business

Stephanie 51:43 of market research. It's getting back to the fundamentals of, like, what makes us people, and I love it, and I'm having such a good time.

Matt 51:49 I love it. It's so on theme with, like, the conversation and even the thing I was just talking about. Like, this is perfect. Perfect theme. Okay. We're not recording yet. Right, Jess? I think the recording stopped.

Unknown 51:58 Matt, can

Stephanie 51:58 you ask me one question to make this a little bit interactive?

Matt 52:02 Oh, yeah. I mean, I I figured we would, like, have a conversation about it. You gotta ask me a question about stuff.

Unknown 52:07 I . Right, Jess? I think the recording stopped. Matt, can

Stephanie 51:58 you ask me one question to make this a little bit interactive?

Matt 52:02 Oh, yeah. I mean, I I figured we would, like, have a conversation about it. You gotta ask me a question about stuff.

Unknown 52:07 I

Stephanie 52:07 will. I'll just I'll just ask you one. But, uh, I was thinking you could ask me because I'm prescriptive. Sorry. Like, what does make us human? Because I have it's fun. The answers are funny. Right? It's like, well, conquering fire language. Sure. But then what it really comes down to that I think is so interesting is our ability to have shared imagined realities, which is directly a function of, uh, of language. But it's like why we can have money and why we can have cultures because we can imagine non concrete things, things that are not actually here, like bears and trees and grass and, you know, other animals, but rather like, oh, yeah. Let's imagine money. There's money now. Like, money's not real.

Matt 52:51 Right. That's a great that's super interesting.

Stephanie 52:54 Super interesting. It's a unique human quality. Yeah. So

Matt 52:58 Um, do we have a name for this? How do we wanna set

Stephanie 53:01 it up? Name it name

Unknown 53:03 it for us. So I I've been going back and forth with Trevor this whole time. So two options that we have, um, the undercurrent, which is I like I like is, like, the after show or swept away, which is a little bit more like, let's get swept away with what trends or or you know? It's more like a geek out moment.

Matt 53:29 I get it.

Unknown 53:34 Also, we never stopped recording. So Oh,

Matt 53:36 we're still recording? Yes. Oh, perfect. I mean, it's because I mean, there was probably some good editable content. I always say that, like, I think, like, we can just, like, go off and ramble. Like, oh, the editors will make that a thing and they're probably watching this right now, like, Jesus Christ. This guy.

Unknown 53:49 This is not on earth.

Stephanie 53:51 This is not what

Unknown 53:52 we meant.

Matt 53:55 Um, uh, okay. Name wise so what's interesting about the undercurrent is that I think both of the things, just by chance, that Stephanie and I were both hitting on, which is, like, this idea of, you know, driving a true human empathy as a means of understanding and understanding what being human is are sort of themes that were the undercurrent of our conversation that we just had with Tanya. Right? You know what I mean?

Tanya 54:28 Mhmm.

Matt 54:29 And that's kinda wild, but that's the case. So I like that as a name for today. I don't know if I I don't know if it will always be something that works. Swept Away, to me, feels more like something that would be in, like, um, oh, I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I I I'm just not vibing with that one immediately. Stephanie, what do you think? e that as a name for today. I don't know if I I don't know if it will always be something that works. Swept Away, to me, feels more like something that would be in, like, um, oh, I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I I I'm just not vibing with that one immediately. Stephanie, what do you think?

Stephanie 54:53 I I don't mind swept away. I know it's a it's a little, uh, you know, frou frou. Yeah. But but I like the the undercurrent was the other one. Right? When my mind immediately went to undercarriage, which is to the sweaty undercarriage of this, uh, podcast. But, uh,

Matt 55:15 I was in more, like, automotive terms. I'm like, okay. Yeah. That's I could do.

Unknown 55:19 Definitely use that clip to promote the segment.

Stephanie 55:24 The sweaty undercarriage of the of the current curiosity. No. But I like the undercarriage too. I think that works. Is that what you said, Matt? Sorry. I was

Matt 55:31 Yeah. I was I like that one best of the two. Jess, what do you think?

Unknown 55:35 Love it. I and I don't think it always needs to be the undercurrent of the current conversation. No.

Matt 55:40 I don't I don't think it'll it'll work out like that each week. I just intentionally.

Unknown 55:44 Could be, like, the undercurrent of the industry or

Matt 55:47 We can we can figure out how to work it in.

Unknown 55:49 Yeah. Um, I unfortunately, I don't have, like, canned language to introduce it. Do you think you'll be able to come up with something on the spot to I think we I think we can be pretty straightforward about, you know, we're trying a new segment. Yeah. I understand. Let us know if you like it type of thing.

Matt 56:09 Uh, I think so too. Yeah. And I mean, we don't even have to, like, reference and I think probably we shouldn't reference the previous, um, reference the interview in the conversation in this part. You know what I mean?

Unknown 56:23 Do you

Matt 56:23 know what I mean? Steph? Like

Stephanie 56:26 I totally do. We're not gonna connect it to that conversation. We're just gonna it's a second little segment in the podcast.

Matt 56:32 That makes it more flexible from, like, a production standpoint too, I think. So that might be ideal. Alright. Cool. Uh, do you wanna set it up? Do you want me to set it up? What

Stephanie 56:42 I say I can set it up, then I'm gonna punt over to you to talk first about

Unknown 56:46 the conspiracy theory. That'll do it.

Matt 56:48 That'll do it. Sounds great.

Stephanie 56:52 Alright. So at this point, Matt I don't like that. I'm gonna start over. Okay. This week, Matt and I would like to introduce a new segment we're trying out called the undercurrent, where each of us just sort of nerds out on and talks about something in the industry, maybe not even in in the industry, something tangential that is really just, uh, making us think this week or sparking us or or, uh, I hate this, guys. Let me try one more time. Okay.

Matt 57:27 You were going you were like,

Unknown 57:28 um, um, I am.

Stephanie 57:29 You did thing in the industry, maybe not even in in the industry, something tangential that is really just, uh, making us think this week or sparking us or or, uh, I hate this, guys. Let me try one more time. Okay.

Matt 57:27 You were going you were like,

Unknown 57:28 um, um, I am.

Stephanie 57:29 You did

Unknown 57:30 it. Okay.

Stephanie 57:32 Alright. So, hey, uh, Matt and I are gonna try out a new segment this week that we're excited about called the undercurrent. And we are both just going to, each week, bring to you something, whether it's an article, a theory, something we're reading, that's really just sparking a lot of interest and joy for us as consumer insights, uh, folks. So, Matt, kick us off. out a new segment this week that we're excited about called the undercurrent. And we are both just going to, each week, bring to you something, whether it's an article, a theory, something we're reading, that's really just sparking a lot of interest and joy for us as consumer insights, uh, folks. So, Matt, kick us off.

Matt 57:59 Absolutely. No pressure. Um, so something that's, uh, bringing me, uh, that that's sparking joy, uh, so to speak in in my day to day lately, um, is this idea that I was exposed to by a family member actually. And it's, um, a concept of called complexity theory, which I'm sure I'm certainly not the only one in the industry that has come across it, but, um, it is really at its core, uh, this notion that when you are attempting to solve a problem, as many of us in the insights industry are doing, whether, you know, we're doing it for our organizations in which we sit or we're doing it for clients on the agency side or maybe we are trying to do it internally, like, uh, to drive organizational change, transformation, something like that. Um, it's this notion that it's a valuable exercise to reflect on how knowable and how controllable the various inputs and outputs in that problem are to you as the problem solver. So in other words, like, you take the way a consumer insights expert would typically approach a question. They're gonna wanna design an experiment. Um, you know, that scientific method is at the core of everything. And I don't mean to say that this is this is a this is a counterpoint. This is not me being a contrarian to the scientific method. I think that fight, I'm gonna I'm probably gonna lose, but it's saying you're going to want to solve a problem by designing an experiment, coming up with a hypothesis, uh, deciding the best way to test the variables and to capture the data. And at the end of the day, you're going to, uh, determine whether that hypothesis is accepted or rejected and you might, you know, uh, iterate on the experiment itself. It's this very sort of classical way of problem solving that works really well under certain circumstances. So complexity theory says, that works well when things are knowable, and in other words, when the system you're trying to affect, when the system you're trying to understand is simple. Uh, the problem is a lot of the things we try to do and the reason this has been on my mind lately is my mind has has really been on, um, uh, like like organizational, um, uh, structural, uh, challenges that have come up. Oh, I don't want to say that. I don't want to say that. The reason that so editor note, I don't want to say that because I don't want that to come off as like, I'm trying to fix things at AYTM. That's not it. Here's what I'll do. I'll back up. So the reason this has been on my mind a lot lately is, uh, you know, there has just been such a focus on all of this, like, large scale societal change going on with, like, AI and, you know, politically and just everyone feels like like things are really, really chaotic. Uh, so that that's one of the reasons this has been really resonating with me lately. But, um, the the crux of it is once you get to the point where, you know, you can you can stop yourself from immediately going down that that that classical scientific method approach. You stop, you pause, you look at the challenges laid out in front of you and you acknowledge that things are not necessarily completely knowable or controllable. And what it what that does in turn is it encourages you to take a position of really championing true understanding and discussion and, um, you know, in in empathetic interchange between you and all the various people that are that are involved. The reason I think that this has really kinda stuck with me, uh, over the last couple of weeks and as it pertains specifically to market research is so many of us fall into research, we fall into research as we say, out of this, uh, love for, um, understanding people, you know, that like, we say empathy all the time. Sometimes it can be overused in a business context to the point where it feels like a buzzword. But to us in the insights industry, it's very, very meaningful because whether we know it or not, it is the thing that has maybe compelled us to actually pursue this as a profession. And so I really I think that there there's some interplay there. That that's one of the reasons this whole idea of complexity theory has really struck with me because it it has, kinda, challenged my notion that, like, okay, yeah, the science is great. You you know, that's that has its place. But acknowledge that the problem you're trying to solve first, uh, might be such a, um, an unknowable, uncontrollable thing that you need to approach it from a place of of empathy and understanding, which is more difficult and nebulous and, um, you know, maybe somewhat uncomfortable for those of us sort of trained in, like, the classical western way. But it's yeah. It's core to us as people. And, like, whether we know it or not, we're good at doing that. We're we're good at actually reaching out and having conversations if if it's something we we prioritize. So that's kinda where my head's been at over the last couple weeks. I know that's a lot to to throw at you, but how does that strike you? Am I crazy? And, like, whether we know it or not, we're good at doing that. We're we're good at actually reaching out and having conversations if if it's something we we prioritize. So that's kinda where my head's been at over the last couple weeks. I know that's a lot to to throw at you, but how does that strike you? Am I crazy?

Stephanie 1:03:34 I like that. Does it become like a different way of a a different means of knowing? Or is it like complimentary? Is it like we need to do that work first before we can put the experimental work within the proper context?

Matt 1:03:47 I would say it's more of a, um, a complimentary approach. But, really, it's almost like there so there's a lot of, uh, interplay between, uh, this concept and, like, mindfulness because, um, it's first saying, like, don't jump ahead to the solutioning and and Yeah. And the challenge and all of that. It's it's almost like grounding yourself in the in the present and really just absorbing as much information, as much of the the nuance that you can. Um, so I I would look at that as complementing, you know, all of these skills that we have amassed as as researchers, which are still very valid. You know, there's there's like I said, I'm not here to dispute the scientific method. Um, but that that's that's how I'm looking at it. And and we'll we'll see if it sticks with me. I'll I'll have to, um, um, keep you updated on on where this, uh, this philosophical exploration goes.

Stephanie 1:04:40 Yeah. Definitely do. I love it.

Matt 1:04:43 What about you? What are you nerding out about?

Stephanie 1:04:48 Sure. I have a a a timely topic this week. So last week, I went to Quirks LA, uh, and had a terrific time. Got to do a speaking session, um, show show off some some AYTM, uh, you know, some new new developments. Uh, and then on my way home so I wanna stress, I had a great time. On my way home, I was in the airport as one as one is and, uh, doing that thing where you walk through, you know, the bookstore. And I'm a sucker for an airport bookstore book. And so I picked up this guy called Sapiens, which is by Yuval Noah Harari. Uh, this book is about ten years old, but it was just rereleased, I think, in 2024, like a ten year edition. Started reading it on the way home, and it is like the perfect, uh, complement to something like quirks because quirks is so much about the business of market research, which I love.

Matt 1:05:45 Mhmm.

Stephanie 1:05:45 But to be able to immerse myself back in this, like, very, like, you know, popular science book about what makes humans humans has been such, uh, like a bomb for my soul. Right? Because this really is, like, what what got me into market research is that, like you said, that deep desire to just understand people and how they work, and so it's been really fun.

Matt 1:06:11 Just like getting back in touch with your humanity. Maybe that's maybe there's there's a maybe that's the undercurrent of of this week. Right? What okay. So I'm curious. I have to ask you, what makes us human? , that deep desire to just understand people and how they work, and so it's been really fun. Just like getting back in touch with your humanity. Maybe that's maybe there's there's a maybe that's the undercurrent of of this week. Right? What okay. So I'm curious. I have to ask you, what makes us human?

Stephanie 1:06:22 Well, Matt, there's such a succinct answer to that. Uh, just kidding. But, uh, a few things that I thought were really interesting and that I think we know, you know, in, uh, informally, inherently, intuitively, uh, is that one is fire, which I loved that they just called out. Right? Like, taming a taming fire, big time human skill. But the bigger one, and it's related to language, so it's not language, but it's that what language gives us is the ability to have shared imagined realities. And when I read that, my mind was just like, oh my god. Of course. Because, really, what that translates to is culture. Right? Uh, because by imagined realities, it means not concrete things.

Unknown 1:07:08 Right.

Stephanie 1:07:09 It means not grass, not animals, not all the tangible things that we see and can feel. But, uh, even money, I like to use that example, is is an imagined a shared imagined reality. Right? That's not real, and that's a very human experience. It's unique to us, and it's allowed us to is is a huge part of what's allowed us to become, you know, what we are today. So

Matt 1:07:30 That's so interesting. Yeah. I've never really thought about it that way. But, yeah, like like, currency is a is a construct, for sure. There's like there's a physical component to it. It's a

Stephanie 1:07:38 symbolic construct. Yeah.

Matt 1:07:40 Yeah. That's and you have to you have to be on the same plane as another of your species for that to actually have a a true existence. That's really interesting.

Tanya 1:07:50 Yeah.

Matt 1:07:50 But also fire. Also fire. You need to be able

Stephanie 1:07:52 to separate it. You gotta have fire. I mean Yeah.

Matt 1:07:55 That's fair. I love it. Well, you'll have to keep us updated on where your your exploration of human reality takes you.

Stephanie 1:08:03 Same. Same with with complexity theory.

Matt 1:08:06 Love it.

Stephanie 1:08:08 Alright. We'll see you guys in two weeks.

Matt 1:08:12 Take care. Bye. We'll see.

Stephanie 1:08:17 Yeah. We'll see how we can cut that up. Chop it up.

Matt 1:08:20 Yeah.

Unknown 1:08:20 A little bit.

Matt 1:08:21 I mean

Unknown 1:08:22 I think it's super interest it's super interesting to me, so I think it'll be really interesting to our audience as well to and it adds, like, um, individuality to you both as hosts. It's not just asking someone questions. It's also sharing what you've learned. So I think it adds a lot, actually.

Matt 1:08:41 Cool. I like it. Yeah. I would read that.

Tanya 1:08:45 If they hink it'll be really interesting to our audience as well to and it adds, like, um, individuality to you both as hosts. It's not just asking someone questions. It's also sharing what you've learned. So I think it adds a lot, actually.

Matt 1:08:41 Cool. I like it. Yeah. I would read that.

Tanya 1:08:45 If they

Stephanie 1:08:45 can if they can cut it down, that was our thinking is that we thought this is easy enough for us to talk about what we're nerding out about, but it it does. It makes it it pulls it back to like, oh, yeah. These are the hosts, and we're starting to learn what they're like.

Matt 1:08:59 So Right.

Unknown 1:09:00 Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Well, I do have to run. I am late for another call, but thank you both. This was great, and, uh, we'll do it again tomorrow.

Matt 1:09:12 That's right.

Stephanie 1:09:13 Sounds good. Alright.

Matt 1:09:14 Now okay. Yeah. Jeff, we just

Unknown 1:09:17 need to yeah.

Matt 1:09:18 I was gonna ask Stephanie, are we gonna do the same topics tomorrow, or do you wanna talk about a different topic tomorrow?

Stephanie 1:09:23 We can't do the same topics.

Matt 1:09:25 Well, like, you could, like, con because well, yeah. That's right. Even though they're being recorded one after the other, the release will still be two weeks. Right? So do we need to come up with another topic?

Stephanie 1:09:35 I was gonna pick a Quirks, uh, article. There are a couple that are in there right now, but I'm like, these are pretty interesting. So one's about base quality. So I need yeah.

Unknown 1:09:45 That that open letter to the industry is a good one. Very topical.

Matt 1:09:50 Yeah. Very topical. Yeah. I just like I mean, you're the content marketing guru. So, like, I I I don't know if we wanna start putting our stake in the sand on on particular POVs regarding that. But, I mean, I'd be happy to talk about it. That's that's not a bad idea. It's not a bad idea.

Unknown 1:10:11 We can connect later on it. I can send you some stuff.

Stephanie 1:10:14 Rossi is

Unknown 1:10:14 doing a presentation on

Matt 1:10:16 True.

Unknown 1:10:17 On defending your survey against bots anyway. So I think we can come up with something for you to share even if it's open ended. And this is an interesting thing from a competitor, but we are also on board with it type of thing.

Matt 1:10:31 Yeah. It's not a bad idea. Steph, what did you have?

Stephanie 1:10:35 Oh, I I was gonna say, let's, uh, if you have time later today, Matt, and I will do the same. Let's go ahead and get in front of this next interview sheet just because we had such a problem with this one that I we're not gonna have as much time because the next one's recording earlier in the morning.

Matt 1:10:48 It's yeah. It's, like, first thing in the morning. Yeah. I have time, uh, this afternoon, so we'll defer to your calendar.

Stephanie 1:10:54 Okay. Sounds good. Alright. Thanks, guys.

Matt 1:10:57 Thanks.

Tanya 1:10:57 See you.