Stephanie 0:04 Okay. Today on the Curiosity Current, we are joined by Ben Valenta, senior vice president of strategy at Fox Sports, where he leads initiatives to enhance the fan experience with innovative strategies in data and consumer insights.

Matt 0:19 Ben has a unique blend of expertise in sports strategy, fan engagement, and the integration of data driven insights to create meaningful connections with audiences. He's also coauthored the book, Fans Have More Friends, which explores the role of fandom in combating loneliness and strengthening social bonds.

Stephanie 0:40 In our conversation today, we are going to dive into how Fox Sports is transforming the fan experience. We're gonna talk about the importance of community building in sports and how the insights from fandom can help businesses understand consumer behavior better.

Matt 0:58 Ben, welcome to the Curiosity Current. We're so happy to have you on the show today.

Ben 1:01 Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Matt 1:04 So, uh, let's just jump right in. I think that this is a super interesting topic to to both Stephanie and I. Um, can you so so your your passion, your your your work has a lot to do with, um, really transforming the fan experience, understanding the fan experience, what it can do for businesses, but, honestly, what it can do for people. I'm just so curious to hear more about where that came from. Can you walk us through your journey? Um, how how does this work play out ur your work has a lot to do with, um, really transforming the fan experience, understanding the fan experience, what it can do for businesses, but, honestly, what it can do for people. I'm just so curious to hear more about where that came from. Can you walk us through your journey? Um, how how does this work play out

Ben 1:35 for you? Sure. Um, I'm I'm kind of embarrassed to say, um, that I have been researching in this space for a long time now. It it goes uh, well before I started at Fox. I'm I'm approaching my tenth year at Fox. But prior to that, I was a a research consultant, brand strategist, uh, working for a small agency, and we did a lot of work in the sports space. So clients like ESPN and Nike, the New York Rangers, the New York Knicks. And I spent a lot of time with sports fans and got to, uh, you know, a fairly decent understanding, I thought, of what drove the fan experience. And even after landing at Fox Sports and that becoming my full time job as understanding sports fans, um, it still took a little bit longer than I would have hoped to get to a a complete understanding of of what makes sports sports fans tick. And it all kinda comes back to this this fundamental insight that we had, which is, um, to be a fan is to be a part of a community. And that was this underlying idea that goes back a long way for me personally, but, um, took a long time to take shape and to fully realize the power of that statement. And and so it was really just flying around the country, uh, spending time with sports fans, hearing their stories, and always recognizing that when a sports fan tells a story about their fandom, there are other people involved. And it's it's subtle. The the fan themselves, like, when they're telling this story, they are not even recognizing the prime the primacy of those connections in driving their fandom. And it took a long time to see that pattern, but now that I've seen the pattern, uh, I see fandom for what it is. And when I hear someone tell their story about being a sports fan, you can see the social connections at work in the subties of the stories that they tell. And these relationships that sports fandom helps to strengthen and and anchor, uh, are deeply profound. They are wildly important to the, uh, goings on of of sports fans' lives, and it just has this profound effect on, uh, effect on on people's well-being. And and it was sort of putting those those things together that took a long time to sort of unpack. But once we once we got there, um, I think it helps kinda shed light on why fans engage, uh, with the sports leagues, teams, etcetera, that that they that they love.

Matt 4:00 So interesting. people's well-being. And and it was sort of putting those those things together that took a long time to sort of unpack. But once we once we got there, um, I think it helps kinda shed light on why fans engage, uh, with the sports leagues, teams, etcetera, that that they that they love. So interesting.

Stephanie 4:02 It really is. So, Ben, in your book, uh, Fans Have More Friends, you know, you that book is really unpacks the powerful role that that fandom has in creating social connection. Um, I will say that, like, as a researcher, I don't know a lot about fandom. But as I was reading, uh, you know, about and through your book, I was thinking about my own journey to sports fandom, which began during the pandemic when the NBA played in the bubble. I had literally really never watched sports in my life, but here I was as captive audience in the middle of a pandemic with the league that had chosen to kind of take this approach, you know, where they were still playing. And fast forward five years, and I'm a season ticket holder now for the Mavericks. Right? Like, this is a huge part of my life, my family's life, and it has brought, like, so much richness to our lives. And so I could really identify so much personally with what you're talking about. But can you from your own lens and, you know, that that sort of more, you know, insights generated by talking to many, many fans over many, many years, what is it? What is that power of fandom that contributes so much to building those social bonds and creating that sense of belonging? y with what you're talking about. But can you from your own lens and, you know, that that sort of more, you know, insights generated by talking to many, many fans over many, many years, what is it? What is that power of fandom that contributes so much to building those social bonds and creating that sense of belonging?

Ben 5:14 Um, so the way to think so come back to this idea. So so to be a sports fan is to be a part of the community. Right? That's what fandom's all about. That's sort of the fun fundamental driver. Um, that idea is nice. It sounds intuitively true. Uh, I think it is true, but people will tend to nod along with that notion and then sort of skip past it. And so where we wanted to try and and, uh, put some data behind this idea, We wanted to get to a testable hypothesis. So to be a sports fan is to be a part of the community is not testable. Right? There's no way to survey someone, uh, and ask them a question that would get you some reliable data back about the power of community in sports fans. Um, but we got to a hypothesis, which was if that's true, if this is really is all about community and that's the fundamental animating force here, then sports fans will enjoy more active social lives. They'll have more friends. And that is a testable hypothesis. That is something that we can actually go and measure. And so we started to play that out in in surveys. And what we find is that the bigger the fan, the more friends they have. Uh, the more they value those relationships, the more frequently they interact with those people, and the same is true of familial relationships as well. So, uh, another way to say that is the bigger the sports fan, the better their relationship probabilistically is with their mother, father, siblings, and so so on. And so what's going on here with sports fandom that would lead to this, uh, explosion of social interaction? Um, and and, really, it comes down to sports create this anchor moment, these anchor things, these third things, um, as opposed to a third place, that facilitate connection. And that's it it's really as simple as that. So when we think about the act of being a sports fan, we often will focus on the action on the on the court or the field. Right? It's about these teams and these leagues and these players, and that's the the animating force. That's the reason that we come and engage, when in fact it's a necessary ingredient to the process, but it is not the most important piece. The most important piece are not the people playing the game on the court between the lines. They're the people sitting next to me in the stands, people that I share my fandom with. And that when when you sort of reorient your understanding of the fan experience through that communal lens, through that social lens, it changes then how you think about the in the entire, uh, fan experience, uh, because now we're understanding the true motivating force is something that is social, that is something that is happening between people, between fans, not between the the the team and the fan. that communal lens, through that social lens, it changes then how you think about the in the entire, uh, fan experience, uh, because now we're understanding the true motivating force is something that is social, that is something that is happening between people, between fans, not between the the the team and the fan.

Stephanie 7:53 Do you think that any of this is is mediated through emotion? Because that's one place my mind went where I was thinking about how interesting it is that sports is so evocative of really strong emotion. Elation, just the cruelty of the disappointment when things did not go well, and that those are inherently emotions that are felt more and you know, that that either you wanna commiserate with other people or you wanna that joy can't really be maximized unless it's shared. You know? Like, have you ever looked into any of that?

Ben 8:25 Yeah. I mean, that that that is what's happening. Like, there is this highly emotional space that we share with other people, and the other people was the thing that gives it all meaning. It's it's why this matters.

Stephanie 8:36 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben 8:37 If you remove the other people, then the the the wins and losses mean less. They just that that's how that works. So you do need both ingredients. Right? Like, you need the, uh, the the game, like tipping off, kicking off to to anchor the interaction. But without the other people involved, the interaction becomes meaningless. And so it's it's kinda recognizing these two variables at work and and also understanding that the way we think about the prioritization of those two variables needs to flip. Right now, generally, I would say, when people talk about the sports business at large, they they have what I would call, like, an entertainment lens on this thing. So in other words, um, this thing is compelling because of the drama, the emotion, the elation, the, uh, agony of defeat that it we are bearing witness to that's happening and unfolding on the screen, on the court. Right? What actually is the the most important thing, Although that that stuff I just ran through, that that is relevant to the to the conversation, but the most important thing, again, is who I'm sharing that with. Right? The I'm from Colorado. I grew up, uh, in Denver. And, uh, the Denver Broncos, the Denver Nuggets, those teams, they are the anchor of many of my closest relationships. That's the reason that I talk to my father is the Denver Broncos. Right?

Stephanie 9:54 Sure. Yeah. again, is who I'm sharing that with. Right? The I'm from Colorado. I grew up, uh, in Denver. And, uh, the Denver Broncos, the Denver Nuggets, those teams, they are the anchor of many of my closest relationships. That's the reason that I talk to my father is the Denver Broncos. Right? Sure. Yeah.

Ben 9:55 And so the that the Broncos have a, you know, a a second year quarterback that everyone's excited about is is useful. Like, that that creates some energy for us. The fact that I share that with my dad, that that's the thing that we talk about, that's actually what keeps me coming back. That's why I buy the tickets. That's why I buy the the merchandise. And so it's it's sort of, uh, from a consumer insight perspective, it's recognizing that the framing needs to shift. In order to shift your thinking downstream of that, there are several decisions you have to make. And if you if you have the right frame, you can get to the right decision because you understand truly what the consumer is is doing. If you come into it with the wrong frame, then you end up making wrong decisions, uh, when when you get downstream of of the of the the initial framing.

Stephanie 10:36 Right.

Matt 10:37 There's this, um, that's all super interesting. There's there's this question I keep kinda coming back to. So so my experience kind of my my sports experience is very different being a proud resident of Columbus, Ohio, where you don't have a choice. You you are a Buckeye fan, uh, regardless of where you come from, what what you wanna see, what what you, uh, what you grew up with. Um, I'm curious about the role the importance of rivalry in this in this equation. Is to to create these social bonds, to create this this community effect that you're describing, is the rivalry a key piece? Is that or maybe not rivalry, but but tribalism, you know. Is that critical to create the the bonds, or is what is what's creating this this this, uh, emotional power sort of transcendental of, like, the actual teams, you know, the the the, um, the regalia and the colors and the fight songs and all that. And it's more what happens when people just engage with the sport itself and they're just, you know, having the shared activity. Certainly on the surface, I'm sure the rivalry is important, but, like, does it go beyond that? teams, you know, the the the, um, the regalia and the colors and the fight songs and all that. And it's more what happens when people just engage with the sport itself and they're just, you know, having the shared activity. Certainly on the surface, I'm sure the rivalry is important, but, like, does it go beyond that?

Ben 11:55 Uh, so to answer your question just very directly, uh, no. The rivalry is not relevant. Um, so we've looked at we we we we cover the the country. We looked at, uh, international markets as well, so we can talk a little bit about that. Um, when we look at a market by market comparison of sports fans, what we see is that there is no difference between big markets and small markets, you know, traditional winning team markets or, you know, lovable loser markets. Yeah. Markets where there is a clear and distinct rival, um, Ohio State, Michigan being a very good example, um, versus markets where there there isn't that same distinguishable rivalry. And so this is happening because there is this shared experience that we share at a at a familial level with our friendship groups, at a community level. Um, and even then, we kinda wear it as identity as we move throughout the world. Um, that is just it's it's true. It's, uh, it's the it's the law of of sports fandom. If you engage in this thing truth. Okay. You have this ability to connect with people. Right? The so that's the answer to your question. I think what's interesting so I get this rivalry question all the time. Um, and it usually goes hand in glove with the idea of, um, hate. Right? Like Right. Love and hate. Right? So so there's these kind of twin ideas, and they're they're sort of like the detritus of, uh, the old school thinking about how fandom works. Right? So, um, first of all, we've actually looked at at rivalries. The reality is there's maybe, maybe on two hands you can get to clear, distinct rivals where, uh, a majority of each fan base will recognize the other team as the rival. Right? So it's actually rivalry is not very widespread. Right? Okay.

Matt 13:36 So we

Ben 13:36 can think of so it's like, uh, Boston, uh, Red Sox, New York Yankees. Right? Uh, Michigan, Wolverines, Ohio State, Buckeyes. Okay. LA Dodgers, SF Giants. Okay. Right? Alright. Who's the, um, if you ask Philadelphia Eagles fans who's their biggest rival, I've done that, uh, you cannot get to consensus. There is no majority team.

Stephanie 14:01 Is it not the Cowboys? Because the Cowboys hate the Eagles. I think you know that. The

Matt 14:05 Cowboys' stat. . Okay. Right? Alright. Who's the, um, if you ask Philadelphia Eagles fans who's their biggest rival, I've done that, uh, you cannot get to consensus. There is no majority team.

Stephanie 14:01 Is it not the Cowboys? Because the Cowboys hate the Eagles. I think you know that. The

Matt 14:05 Cowboys' stat.

Ben 14:06 The Cowboys hate the Eagles. The the the the Washington commanders, they hate the Eagles. The Eagles have something with, uh, New York. Like, you will get these answers. Dallas is the same thing. We've we've actually we've we've pulled this exact thing. So this idea of rivalry, like, while important to the regalia of the fan experience, is actually not as widespread as we as we think it is. Um, and so so that just kinda one thing. And then there's this other idea that comes up in these conversations about, um, sports fandom where we get to this notion of hate. Right? And so it's like, but what about, you know, two two teams, two rival teams who hate each other? Like, what about the is that creating connection? Isn't that creating more disconnection and dislocation in society? And to that, I would say absolutely not. Because when we use the word hate in this context, it fundamentally means something different than when we use it in other contexts.

Stephanie 14:57 I totally buy that. It's sport hate.

Ben 14:59 It's sport hate. It's it's sports love. It's sport hate. It's all these things. So, no. Like, the reality is if you are a Ohio State Buckeye fan, talking to Michigan Wolverine fans is more fun than talking to, you know, USC Trojan fans. Like, it just that's the reality

Stephanie 15:14 of that. That's a good point.

Ben 15:15 That's a

Matt 15:15 good point. That's a good point.

Ben 15:16 And so so this like, all these things kinda just get mixed up, and then, like, it becomes the conventional wisdom, but it's actually not true of the fan experience. So if we if you sort of stop down and just kinda follow the idea to its logical conclusion, which is, uh, effectively, that's kinda what we try and do here, um, then you you start to realize, oh, that's actually not rivalry is not the the critical thing. Um, hate is actually not the right way to to think about this. And so you start to pull away what doesn't matter and what's not true to get to what actually is true about the fan experience.

Matt 15:47 Super interesting.

Stephanie 15:48 Getting to that, you know, you're you're sort of pointing out the universality of it. Of it. Uh, but I am curious because you mentioned lightly internationally any, you know, speaking to any differences. I would love for you to unpack that if there are sort of differences. I was also wondering, um, this is just something I'm curious about is I think that, you know, we can look at different sports and identify like, I feel like an NBA fan is so different from a hockey fan. Like, that's just like, being in the stadium is a completely different experience. Nevertheless, is this just a universal across sports? It's really not there aren't a lot of sports specific differences? u know, we can look at different sports and identify like, I feel like an NBA fan is so different from a hockey fan. Like, that's just like, being in the stadium is a completely different experience. Nevertheless, is this just a universal across sports? It's really not there aren't a lot of sports specific differences?

Ben 16:27 There, um, so we'll talk about international fan in a second. But for to the second question, there aren't, um, a lot of differences. Um, and in fact, the idea, the framing again, like, that's my kind of pet peeve here is, like, how we frame these different conversations leads us to, uh, getting to to the right solutions, uh, the right answers to questions. Um, the reality is there really isn't, like, an NBA fan, and that's the it's the wrong framing for how we think about fandom in this country. Okay. The reality is there are fans. There are sports fans. And there are people who are more engaged in sports, and there are people who are less engaged in sports. And the more engaged among us are the most likely to engage in every sport out there. Right? Yeah. So I can predict your level of NFL fandom if I just ask you about your engagement with the NBA, MLB, college football, college basketball. I will know to, uh, you know, within a couple points where you are on the fan scale that we have developed based on your answer to other quest other sports in question. So the most likely, uh, fan of a of a local NFL team in each given market are the biggest fans of the local MLB team and so on and so forth. Right? So all of these things work together. So the idea that there are NFL fans and now could do you guys know someone who doesn't really follow sports and loves tennis? Sure. Like, that person exists. But but, again, we're talking about, like, probabilities here.

Stephanie 17:56 We are talking about probabilities. Yeah. So yeah.

Ben 17:58 Yeah. The way the way that we view the the world is through, um, very simple segmentation, uh, three groups, high, mid, low. Right?

Stephanie 18:05 Nice. ists. But but, again, we're talking about, like, probabilities here. We are talking about probabilities. Yeah. So yeah.

Ben 17:58 Yeah. The way the way that we view the the world is through, um, very simple segmentation, uh, three groups, high, mid, low. Right?

Stephanie 18:05 Nice.

Ben 18:06 The biggest fan of every sport, World Surf League. Who are who are the biggest fans of the World Surf League? It's your high engaged fans, which are defined by their engagement with the NFL, MLB, uh, NBA, so on and so forth. Right? Any sport in question, the chart looks identical, and there's a stair step up as you the bigger the fan of the other sports, the more likely they are to be fans of f one, uh, NASCAR, international soccer, uh, bull riding, tennis, golf. Like, it always works the same way. And so we have this picture in our head of, like, the MLB fan is one thing and that's a group of people, and the NBA fan is another thing. And the reality is it's mostly just the same group of people driving the majority of engagement. And then, uh, you uh, you know, around the periphery is where we've kinda fill in, it kinda balances out averages to look a little bit different. But that's actually not the clear picture of of of of of who's a fan today. Um, so that's that that idea of of of, like, the differences between sports. There really aren't differences between sports, and it's really the same people that we're talking about. So then the international side, um, I get this question a lot too. It's like, this is just a unique phenomenon, this idea that fans have more friends. Um, we haven't really talked about the wellness outcomes that, uh, come from the additional socializing that fans enjoy. So not only do fans have more friends, but as a result of all the socializing that they do, they're happier. They're more satisfied in their life. They're more grateful. They're more confident. They're more optimistic. They're more likely to go to charity. Um, every conceivable wellness outcome that we've ever tested comes back the exact same. The bigger the fan, the more likely to enjoy that thing, to be less depressed, uh, less lonely, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So we wanted to test that against the world. And the what we've what we've found is, in general, it works the same way. There's a relationship to your level of engagement in sports in whatever country you're in and the amount of friends you have and then your mental health as a result of that. So that's that's true. The difference, though, is we see a greater magnitude of of difference between your most engaged fans in America and your least engaged fans or your non fans, uh, in America. And, really, the way to think about that is we have a much more robust sporting infrastructure in this country than in other countries. So when you delve into you know, you think about, like, the, uh, rabid soccer fans in in Europe, for instance, That's real they they exist. They're very engaged. Uh, that's their their only sport

Stephanie 20:33 Right. is we have a much more robust sporting infrastructure in this country than in other countries. So when you delve into you know, you think about, like, the, uh, rabid soccer fans in in Europe, for instance, That's real they they exist. They're very engaged. Uh, that's their their only sport Right.

Ben 20:34 Truly. Like, if you're in The UK, maybe you're a cricket fan. You know, you watch Wimbledon. Uh, you catch a couple rugby matches. But there's really no other leagues to follow outside of the domestic competitions, uh, soccer competitions in in The UK and then, like, your European Champions League, that kind of thing. Beyond that, that that's sort of it. What we do here in this country is we move between seasons, and there's always something on the horizon. Always something. Yeah. There's always the next thing. And that just creates this cycle of connection that then benefits, uh, engaged fans in this country more than their counterparts in other countries. So at the at its core, fandom works the same way the world over. And and truly, fandom fandom of anything works in the same way. It's a it's a social enterprise. Um, but in this country, we enjoy these these these benefits, uh, because it's just a more robust sporting calendar, and there's more to pay attention to and more to engage with. And because the engagement leads to positive knock on effects, we enjoy those things more.

Stephanie 21:37 Gotcha. Uh, that is fascinating. So so to to get back to to to another question I had. So as established, you know, fandom is about more than just watching the games. We're get we need to get to the right framing as you say. I'm curious in this context, in this framing of it being about the community and the connections with other people. Is there a role for teams, for broadcasters to cultivate that sense of community, or is it more about, like, capitalizing on it because there's nothing that's needed to be done? It's just like the natural it's it is a natural outcome of fandom. And so what is the how do brands and well, really, broadcasters' teams, how do they how do they use this information? s to cultivate that sense of community, or is it more about, like, capitalizing on it because there's nothing that's needed to be done? It's just like the natural it's it is a natural outcome of fandom. And so what is the how do brands and well, really, broadcasters' teams, how do they how do they use this information?

Ben 22:19 I I think it's recognizing what is actually driving the engagement at its heart. Um, so there's a couple couple other things that kind of are relevant to this part of the conversation. Um, one is you don't become a fan overnight. Right? It's not an on off switch. You become a fan over time because you are socialized into it. The majority of fans are socialized into it from their upbringing. So their their parents were friends are fans, and they become fans as a result of that. Yeah. So that means that we are talking about generational time lines when it comes to cultivating more fans. And so I think one thing that is important for practitioners in the space, whether you're a team or a league or a broadcaster, is to recognize, a, the centrality of the the human connection, because that's the thing driving engagement, and then, b, the time line at which that works and operates. Like, there's a large duration. Uh, you need a lot of, um, we we talk a lot about the the fan flywheel. And the fan flywheel is there's two variables driving fandom by fan engagement. You engage as a fan in some activity, and then the resulting, uh, what results from that is, uh, social, you know, positive social interaction. Right? That positive social interaction incentivizes you to engage more, which results in more positive, uh, interaction and so on and so forth. The flywheel starts to spin. You need a lot of spins on the flywheel in order to become a engaged fan. Right? It just doesn't it's not one game. You could point. Like, fans will often point. It was the one game when my dad took me and I sat on grandpappy's knee and we watched the, you know, the Cubs. Yeah. We have those memories, but the reality is you became a fan over years and took a lot of spins on the flywheel in order for you to recognize the, uh, the, you know, the the sort of deep rooted nature of your your engagement. And and so I I think when it comes to the the teams, the leagues, the broadcaster, it's it's recognizing that this thing takes time, and you need to put the fan first and put the social connection first. That's the most important part. So because I I I think one of my biggest criticisms actually of of this space is most teams don't do anything to incentivize these things. Most teams actually, uh, just, uh, you know, they rely on the organic nature of this, and then they extract the the proceeds. Right? And they could be doing a lot more to Okay. Recognize this this sort of connection. And then how do you sort of facilitate those connections? Right? And I think that's the that's the the the unlock here for the sports business, especially on the team side, a little bit on the broadcaster side. But particularly when we're thinking about teams cultivating their fan bases, um, it's it's what can you do to facilitate these things. Right? So I'll give you an example. I have a, uh, a seven year old son, loves basketball, he's just gotten into it. Um, the the one of the teams here in the area, they, uh, sponsor the the the rec leagues, and they they give kids a ticket to a game. Cool. And it's an awesome program. They do a great job. It's working too because these kids are all wearing the local team's Sure. Logo. Right? They're all talking about the the team. Um, great job by the team to recognize that this happens at the the young age, right, and you want to cultivate these things, and it's . Cool. And it's an awesome program. They do a great job. It's working too because these kids are all wearing the local team's Sure. Logo. Right? They're all talking about the the team. Um, great job by the team to recognize that this happens at the the young age, right, and you want to cultivate these things, and it's

Stephanie 25:31 all early.

Ben 25:31 But here's the here's the rub. The tickets that they were giving away to the seven year olds were all for Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night games at 07:30PM. So it's it's sort of you you did most of the right thing.

Stephanie 25:46 Yeah.

Ben 25:47 You left it a little short. And so I but I think that's partly because we're not thinking about it the the right way. What we should be doing, if you're the the team in any team in question, is you want all the kids that are playing the sport to be coming with their friends to the games. Right? And they wanted they come with their friends and with their family. And you wanna create a ritual out of that. What can you do if you put that as your North Star? How do I create a family ritual using the game and the tenants of the game and the team as the anchor?

Stephanie 26:17 As the anchor. Yep.

Ben 26:18 Yep. I highly doubt that there are teams that have actually framed the question that way. They've done giveaways. They wanna sponsor these things. Yes. All of that is is good, but you you haven't actually gone the whole way to say, I wanna become the ritual of of this family. How do I do that? How do I facilitate that? And then and then I think it would change the outcomes, um, that you would, uh, uh, right you know, the tactics tactics you would use because you're now thinking about it the the the right way. Um, and and so I think that that's the the the sort of most important part thing. But you have to understand, like, how fandom operates. You have to understand how it takes shape or takes root, uh, takes shape over time, and and just recognize these are long time lines that we're working on, and and you're not necessarily gonna get a return on investment next year. But if you can do this right over the years, then over time, you will you will grow the fan base.

Matt 27:07 MLS youth soccer camps spring to mind as, like, a really, uh, positive example of, I think, what you're describing. Right? It's like this way to engage kids young, but also give them a really meaningful experience that's supported by the brand. And then, obviously, you know, like you said, they're they're decked out in the regalia and promoting from that aspect, but it's more of like a you know, there's there's there's there's some meaning behind giving, um, a family a a reason to get together and have some fun, uh, for a few days on a hot summer. Um, that really jumps out. usly, you know, like you said, they're they're decked out in the regalia and promoting from that aspect, but it's more of like a you know, there's there's there's there's some meaning behind giving, um, a family a a reason to get together and have some fun, uh, for a few days on a hot summer. Um, that really jumps out.

Ben 27:38 Yeah. And I think it's also just, like, one of the reasons that kids who participate in the sport will become are more likely to become fans of the sport is because they've they've learned to utilize the sport, the team, for social ends. Right? Mhmm. That becomes your group of friends. And what do you talk about when you're at practice and taking a water break? Probably the local team, right, and the and the play like, that's how this actually works and it takes shape. But, again, we're we're we need to frame it like that. Frame it as a social enterprise. Frame it as something that is only going to be, uh, propelled forward by social connections and vibrant active social connections. So how do you foster and facilitate those things? The camps are great. I I don't know much about the MLS camps specifically. It's it's a great idea. They should be doing those things. But can you think about that in terms of fostering community? Not just to bring kids in and give them jerseys Yeah. But rather, how do you, again, use the team to anchor the interaction? How does the the team become the most important part of the interaction? Um, that's the I think that's the the the the trick here. And if we if we can do that, then we can get a little bit further down the track of of pushing in the right direction and actually providing momentum for that fan flywheel as opposed to just sort of, like, letting it spin and hoping that it creates enough energy to mint the new the next generation of fans. Interesting.

Stephanie 28:53 I think it's interesting too to think about how you know, the I'm gonna use the platform of, like, YouTube. And, I mean, I know all they're doing is letting videos be hosted there, but, like, I'm thinking let me give you an example of, like, Cooper Flagg coming to the Mavericks. And, you know, I have a 10 year old who's, uh, watches this YouTube kids constantly. What is he watching right now? Cooper Flagg videos. And then what he's doing with his friends, though, is they're just, like, talking stats to each other, and they're right? Like, it is he is watching the video so that he can go and have these conversations in his social circles, and it's like, who knows more and how it's how they talk together. Right? But it is interesting to think about how even platforms like YouTube for kids like, they're meeting kids where they're at to sort of even engender these same kinds of and facilitate this same kind of camaraderie between kids, or at least kids are finding it there. You know?

Ben 29:47 Yeah. And I think that that's the important part I to but it it's it's kinda putting those two things together. Like, I like what you did there by the content on YouTube is is grist for the the conversational mill

Stephanie 29:58 Yeah. tween kids, or at least kids are finding it there. You know?

Ben 29:47 Yeah. And I think that that's the important part I to but it it's it's kinda putting those two things together. Like, I like what you did there by the content on YouTube is is grist for the the conversational mill

Stephanie 29:58 Yeah.

Ben 29:59 Among our friends. Yep. The content on YouTube alone doesn't do much

Stephanie 30:03 No. To

Ben 30:04 cultivate fans. And I think, again, that's that can be, um, perhaps lazy thinking on on operators in in this space is, oh, we have to have a social presence. Let's be on, you know, Twitter that that we're gonna meet them where they're at by giving them TikTok highlights. Like, that alone is not enough because what you actually want them to do is talk about the thing with their friends.

Stephanie 30:26 Yeah.

Ben 30:26 If you get to the point where they're talking about the the the the team, the league, the player, whatever, with their friends, that's when they're engaged fans.

Stephanie 30:32 That's the thing.

Ben 30:33 Yeah. And and so I think it's it's kind of putting it again, adding the step to of of connection to the process and recognizing that the end goal is not engagement on YouTube. The end goal is talking, you know, little Johnny talking to his buddies about Cooper Flagg, uh, highlights and stats and how they're excited for the team, and they wanna then then that because that's what leads to, I'm gonna buy the jersey. And that's what lead to, hey, mom. Can we go to the game? And that's what like, those are the and that's where you actually recognize real value in this chain is when they get to that that level.

Stephanie 31:04 Yep.

Matt 31:06 I think you really just answered the kinda the the next question that I had, which was, are there elements to this this, um, you know, this this discovery that you've made that are transferable outside of, you know, the sports world, just into industry in general, and in how to, uh, develop some of these more meaningful relationships. And, um, I think you just you you just nailed it, uh, head on right there. Yeah.

Ben 31:31 I mean, I think yeah. Well, I just to to comment on that, I think that fandom works the same way no matter what we're talking about. Mhmm. It's just that many fandoms are kind of, like, the in the long tail. Right? And you they don't have expression in the in the mainstream pop culture. And that's what's unique about sports. Right? So

Stephanie 31:48 Yep.

Ben 31:48 You and I can bond over our shared love of some things. You know? I have liked to surf and ride bikes. Right? Chances are you guys don't do that. Right? But if you put me in a bar anywhere in Dallas right now, I guarantee you, I could gin up a conversation about the Dallas Cowboys. Guarantee.

Stephanie 32:04 Sure. Yeah. I can bond over our shared love of some things. You know? I have liked to surf and ride bikes. Right? Chances are you guys don't do that. Right? But if you put me in a bar anywhere in Dallas right now, I guarantee you, I could gin up a conversation about the Dallas Cowboys. Guarantee. Sure. Yeah.

Ben 32:04 Okay. So that that and and that just illustrates the the scale at which we're talking about. And so I think when when because I get this question a lot. Like, are there ways to apply this consumer insight outside of the realm of sports? And the reality is you can think of fandom this way, and it works the same way. The the reason that people bought Taylor Swift's tickets last summer for the for the tour had more to do with who they were sharing it with than it did Taylor herself. Right? So that is the right way to think about how fandom works. Yeah. But the the the sad reality of Taylor Swift is at some point, she's gonna hang it up. Right? Um, there's not gonna be another tour this summer. Right? Guess what? Dallas Cowboys gonna report to training camp couple week in time.

Stephanie 32:43 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben 32:44 It's reliable. Right? And so Yeah. That's how I I think that that's the the the important thing to can you extract those insights? Yes. And I think it can it can be helpful given the specific set of circumstances that you might have as a brand, uh, in question. But the reality is, like, it's not gonna work the same way because of the scale. That's a

Matt 33:05 great point. There's a permanence with sports that doesn't necessarily transfer outside of outside of that world. It's somewhat unique.

Ben 33:12 Absolutely. It's it's it's permanence. It's scale. It's the reliable recurring rhythm of sport

Stephanie 33:18 Yes.

Ben 33:19 That creates this this social galvanizing power. That's what's happening.

Matt 33:24 Uh, not at all, uh, on the, uh, on the agenda, but it it it what you just say kinda reminded me of another thing that I, uh, have often, uh, discussed and heard discussed. There what is it about is there something about the virtue of a sport as well that plays into this? And what I mean by that is, you know, when you're watching football, uh, and a play takes place that, um, you know, disadvantages one team and there's a confrontation, there's replay, and there are officials, and there's replay after replay after replay, and then there's an analyst. And there's this whole there's this whole litigation that can take place, and it's expected to take place, and it's understood. And at the end of it I mean, of course, like, people are always gonna agree. But there there is this there seems to me to be this sense around sport of of fairness as a virtue that is not necessarily present in everybody's everyday life through in other aspects. Is that something that that helps compel us as well? Is there a little bit of of escapism into that into that idealism? s gonna agree. But there there is this there seems to me to be this sense around sport of of fairness as a virtue that is not necessarily present in everybody's everyday life through in other aspects. Is that something that that helps compel us as well? Is there a little bit of of escapism into that into that idealism?

Ben 34:37 Um, I so I think it's part of the the nature of the competition. It's kinda what makes it compelling. I think it's to protect that, um, the on field product as it were, um, to make sure that that it it does it it is sort of fair. And there are officials, and they're they're calling it, and nothing, uh, untoward and unsportsmanlike is is happening. Like, that that is true. Um, is it one of the reasons we love sports? Yeah. It's part of it. But I think it's, like, protect protecting the the the sanctity of that is the the reason that, you know, it it then allows us to connect, uh, with other people using this thing as the anchor. Right? If this thing was just kinda made up and and and sort of Somebody should say that. Have that component

Stephanie 35:21 Yeah.

Ben 35:21 Then but but at the same time, like, even as I say that, you know, the WWE wrestling does the same operates in the same way.

Stephanie 35:30 But it's known. Okay.

Matt 35:31 It's it's, like, part of the shtick at that point. Right?

Ben 35:35 Uh, Yeah. Yeah. It but but but it's known. It's part of the stick, but, like, what the way the the reason people are connected fans of the WWE are connecting is because they're doing it with other people. Right. That that it is

Stephanie 35:45 That part was

Ben 35:46 the social phenomenon.

Stephanie 35:46 That is the right.

Ben 35:47 And guess what? The most likely fan of the WWE is is a high value fan in in our the most engaged fan of other sports. Right? Like, that's it all kinda works the same way. Um, so but I wanna come back to one thing because you used a word, and I wanna just kinda use it as I wanna push back a little bit because I this I I again, I'm the framing guy. Like, it's all about how we frame things. The the word escapism should be vanished from this, um, this conversation.

Stephanie 36:11 Tell us four. I wanna come back to one thing because you used a word, and I wanna just kinda use it as I wanna push back a little bit because I this I I again, I'm the framing guy. Like, it's all about how we frame things. The the word escapism should be vanished from this, um, this conversation. Tell us four.

Ben 36:13 The the idea that consumers are trying to escape something is the wrong framing for thinking about why consumers are in the space and transacting. Okay. Um, and so I the this and so the the reason I feel this so viscerally is because I fly around the country, and I talk to fans, and I talk to them about why they engage. And guess what? Every kind time I have a conversation, they lean forward, they get excited, the the tenor of their voice picks up, and they start talking about things that they love about the sports in question, right, the teams in question. At no point have I ever, in, uh, fifteen years of doing this, thousands and thousands of conversations, have I ever heard someone say, I do this to escape the drudgery of my life. I'm just trying to find, uh, a moment of quiet. They're just so plugged in. They're so engaged. Right? And so the the notion that people are trying to escape, and that is some sort of a, um, a a, uh, an incentive, a driver, uh, of their behavior, I think it's just the wrong it leads us to the wrong conclusions again. Thinking about it, they are passionate and they want to engage. They're not running away from anything. They are running to things that they love. And I think that, again, that that framing of the consumer mindset here is really important because it gets us to smarter, more clear thinking down the line from from that that question.

Stephanie 37:32 Oh, totally. Like, just thinking about approach motivation over avoidance motivation and how different they are and and and and different to, uh, not only to experience, but to to capitalize on or try to move at all would be would be wildly different. That's so interesting.

Ben 37:50 But but it's a it's a piece of conventional wisdom that, um, it's now become my my my sort of, like, picadillo, which is why I don't wanna pick on that for every because everyone talks about this in terms of escapism. Um, I was actually just listening to a podcast the other day with the CMO of a prominent league said that that was part part of his platform was that we were escapist content for the for the country. And I just I I think it's the wrong framing. It's the it's just not getting to the heart of why consumers engage. And I, uh, like, I love your idea of, like, approach versus avoidant. Like like, exactly that. Like, they're like, we're we're these people are coming to to engage with something that they love, and they're not trying to avoid anything.

Matt 38:27 I don't disagree with you. Um, but I I want your advice on this, which is I I love the viewpoint that you just shared. How do you then respond to the pushback that, well, people don't know that what they are doing is actually escaping the drudgery of of their life? So they they can't articulate that to you. So so how do you how do you prove that story out? want your advice on this, which is I I love the viewpoint that you just shared. How do you then respond to the pushback that, well, people don't know that what they are doing is actually escaping the drudgery of of their life? So they they can't articulate that to you. So so how do you how do you prove that story out?

Ben 38:52 I I guess it it's less to me proving it out to be 100% accurate. Because, like, other days that I get home from work and I'm just like, I just need to chill out and I need to turn my brain off. Yeah. I I've experienced that consumer mindset before. Right? Yeah. Mhmm. Um, I would just say that, one, I that seems to not be the case for when fans are engaging in sports. Like, if you're in the living room with fans, um, watching them watch sports, they're plugged in. They're dialed. They're leaning forward. Right? Yeah. Are they not thinking about other things, other problems they might have in that moment? Sure. But but this comes to framing. Right? They're not doing this to avoid this other thing. They're doing this because they love it. And the more we can talk about them loving the thing and why they love the thing, then we're gonna be closer to the right answers for a whole host of other questions which we haven't even explored. Um, but it's but it's that I so for for me, it's less like, I need to prove to you that I'm right. It's me more saying, don't think of it that way. Think of it this way. This is actually the the right approach to thinking about it because it will make you smarter for subsequent questions, which we haven't even thought of yet.

Stephanie 39:59 So I have what I think of as, like, the the big million dollar question for you that, um, really is meant to ask, like, how does this apply to businesses that are not in the world of you know, not not sport business. So, you know, your work does really have this really you know, this focus on the value of sports fandom and how it reduces loneliness, enhances well-being. Are there things that other types of brands and businesses can can do to apply these same principles of social connection to their customer engagement strategies? Is there any replication or, like, borrowing of of thought leadership that can be done in a non fan based, uh, industry? Or I'm trying to think, like, CPG, right, or or restaurants. Do we really think of people who go to restaurants as fans of restaurants? Maybe not. But

Matt 40:51 That's the question. rategies? Is there any replication or, like, borrowing of of thought leadership that can be done in a non fan based, uh, industry? Or I'm trying to think, like, CPG, right, or or restaurants. Do we really think of people who go to restaurants as fans of restaurants? Maybe not. But That's the question.

Ben 40:54 Yeah. I I I don't know. I'm I I want to be open minded here to think, yeah, there there are things we could we could learn and apply. Um, I I, you know, I do think the notion of community and connection driving engagement is applicable beyond the world of sports. Right? So we come back to, like, Taylor Swift. And so there there are fandoms that grow out of this social connection, the social network, and the incentives, the that fan flywheel. Um, it it can work beyond sports, um, and you could think of it that way. Uh, you know, one example comes to mind is, um, my son for a while was, like, super into Star Wars. He'd never seen Star Wars. He just came home one day. He was playing like he was, uh, Luke Skywalker. And I was like, where did this come from? And he's like, oh, we were all playing it. It was a game somebody brought up at school. We were all playing it on the on the on the school yard. I was like, buddy, let me I'm gonna blow your mind. You've never heard of Luke Skywalker. Check this out. And so he started watching he, you know, voraciously consumes all the Star Wars Star Wars content, and then he goes back and he plays. And he comes home, and he watches Star Wars content. And he goes back and he plays. And it it that actually is the thing that generated what that I spent, I don't know, untold hundreds of dollars on on Star Wars Legos and lunch boxes. And it all came from the social interaction that was generated by the content. So I think, you know, if you're in a content biz, you can think that way if you're not where where sort of the word fan applies, that you can you can think that way. And and so there there there could be some some useful lessons to extract there. Um, I think one and this is not really the heart of your question, but, um, maybe adjacent to it. One way to think about this also is to I I've increasingly come to see sports fandom as a signal of engagement in society at large. So what I see is the biggest consumer of any media product is a engaged sports fan. Right? The people who watch the most, um, CSI, engaged sports fan. People that watch the most local news, engaged sports fan. People that watch the most Real Housewives of New Jersey are engaged sports fans. Right? So, again, we think about these things as as, like, unrelated to one another. Yeah. But but the the but there is, like, a group of people who are engaged and plugged into society, and sports fandom is a signal of that. Right? It's fandom

Stephanie 43:08 and archetype, just fandom more generally? Are there people who are just fans

Ben 43:13 Sports fandom is who

Stephanie 43:14 are not fans? Okay. Sports fandom is an archetype.

Ben 43:17 Um, and maybe I don't I wanna be careful because I'm maybe you mean archetype in a very specific way.

Stephanie 43:22 I really don't. more generally? Are there people who are just fans

Ben 43:13 Sports fandom is who

Stephanie 43:14 are not fans? Okay. Sports fandom is an archetype.

Ben 43:17 Um, and maybe I don't I wanna be careful because I'm maybe you mean archetype in a very specific way.

Stephanie 43:22 I really don't.

Ben 43:23 Okay. Um, but I so if I think about building another business unrelated to sports

Stephanie 43:30 Yeah.

Ben 43:31 The target audience that I would have in mind likely is sports fans. Right? Now it could be some segment of sports fans. Right? I wanna talk to engaged female sports fans to sell something, some CPG product. Um, but it's sports fandom. Right? Because that signals anxiety engagement with society. More trust in institutions, more trust in other people, um, more engagement in local community, uh, higher affinity of brands, more likely to be a trusted, uh, word-of-mouth resource for people making purchases, um, a whole host of all the, uh, all the we we do this for our for our sales team. All the, um, consumer attitudes and attributes that you would want to make a sale to Ford or Home Depot or, um, Dove soap, uh, the it it all comes back to the most engaged fans or the most engaged consumers of every other product. Most engaged consumers call me.

Stephanie 44:21 Takeaway. Yeah. And I have to say, I feel like I'm gonna start adding a sports fandom question to all the segmentation work that I do now. So we don't always have to use it, but now I just wanna look. I'm very, very interested in this effect.

Ben 44:35 It it kinda flies in the face, and this kinda comes back to the the beginning of the conversation, like, where this came from, is we have these cultural conceptions of of sports fans. They that mostly revolve around the idea, like, the face painter. Right? It's like these crazy people

Stephanie 44:48 Yeah.

Ben It it kinda flies in the face, and this kinda comes back to the the beginning of the conversation, like, where this came from, is we have these cultural conceptions of of sports fans. They that mostly revolve around the idea, like, the face painter. Right? It's like these crazy people

Stephanie 44:48 Yeah.

Ben 44:48 Or these, like, kind of boorish bros who are, like, spilling spilling beer in the in the outfield bleachers, making people uncomfortable. And, like, those people exist in the world. But I fly around the country, and I'd have interactions with fans, and it was altogether wholesome. Right? Sure. It was just people who were very engaged, very stable, very wholesome, and they were the ones who were plugged into sports. Right? And it and it was just this picture of, uh, what I was seeing that ran counter to the conventional wisdom and the and the sort of the stereotypes. And and I, you know, I encounter it in the halls of my day job today. Like, people, uh, that work in other entertainment, uh, content verticals, let's say, entertainment news, etcetera, thinking about, um, you know, it's like, hey. We're gonna do a collaboration with the sports group. We should, um, we'll just put a jersey on it, and we'll and that'll that'll be enough to to convert the sports fans. And what I'm trying to get them to understand is their audience already is comprised mostly of sports fans because they're the most voracious consumers of all media across the board, no matter the platform, no matter the brand in question. And and so it's it's just like recognizing that this thing is a signal, a powerful signal, for engagement in the world. And if you want to talk to people who are engaged in the world, which brands do, um, they should be talking about and thinking about sports fans.

Stephanie 45:59 Yeah. Very cool. I don't know where we are, Matt. Yeah. What do you wanna pick up from here?

Matt 46:07 Uh, let's see. So, um, we have our closing questions. Where, uh, where uh, where where about are we? I I feel like that

Stephanie 46:16 that was there.

Matt 46:18 I felt I feel like that was a great place to to end personally for me. I don't know. What do you think? Our our closing questions are cheesy and, um, at this point, irrelevant.

Stephanie 46:30 Selling them. Yeah.

Matt 46:32 Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just like I mean, you know you know what I'm talking about. Um,

Ben 46:37 I yeah. I mean, it's up to you guys. I, um, my answer to I well, I don't have them right in front of me, but the one of the closing questions, which is about, like, uh, who was it? Let me pull it up.

Stephanie 46:48 We have one piece of advice you'd offer someone turning out in insights or strategy.

Ben 46:52 So my, like, my number one high hiring criteria is curiosity. Um, Oh, we love that here. Good. Tell us more about that. As the on the curiosity current, I imagine you would.

Stephanie 47:01 Um, Okay. Let's wait. Look. Do you mind? Let me ask

Matt 47:04 a question. Let me ghts or strategy.

Ben 46:52 So my, like, my number one high hiring criteria is curiosity. Um, Oh, we love that here. Good. Tell us more about that. As the on the curiosity current, I imagine you would.

Stephanie 47:01 Um, Okay. Let's wait. Look. Do you mind? Let me ask

Matt 47:04 a question. Let me

Stephanie 47:12 here, although I don't need it. Um, Ben, to to close this out today, this has been an incredibly fascinating conversation, and I think something that Matt and I are gonna be thinking about for a while. But one thing that we always like to ask our guest is, what is one piece of advice that you would offer to somebody who's just starting out in the world of insights or strategy?

Ben 47:31 So, um, it it's fitting because my answer to this question, um, on the the curiosity current is curiosity. And it's actually the number one hiring criteria that we have set out for our team, um, years ago, um, that what we're ultimately looking for and the the thing, the trait that unlocks success in this world is being curious. And it's just this insatiable curiosity that, uh, we look for ways people demonstrate that in their in their lives. Um, we look for ways that demonstrate that in their professional lives. But being curious and just following your nose and and continuing to pull at threads and never really being satisfied and always asking questions, that's the most important thing. Now I think that's actually true for careers beyond consumer research and consumer insights and brand strategy and any marketing job. But I think in this space in particular, you you have to have that thing. And if you don't, it's gonna be, uh, really difficult to get to powerful insights that unlock real transformation in business if you're if you're not constantly just sort of obsessed with this that comes from an innate level that is really just driven by your your curiosity and insatiable curiosity for, uh, insights in how people operate, what they think, uh, how the world works, and and always sort of rejecting the conventional wisdom to to sort of ask the tough questions to get to those answers. And if you don't have that that curiosity, you're you're just not gonna get very far down that track. Okay.

Stephanie 49:02 Matt, are you gonna ask the last question or alright. See you. Okay. Do a proper outro. Okay.

Matt 49:08 No. I think that was good. I I think that was good. I'm I'm glad I'm glad I'm

Ben 49:11 glad I'm glad I'm glad

Matt 49:11 I'm glad. Yeah. Um, that was, uh, that was great. Uh, you're a natural at this. Okay. Do you want me to outro? I'll I'll be happy to outro. It's very simple. Okay. Alright. Well, Ben Valenta, again, so lovely having you on the show today. Um, such great insight shared. Uh, we we really appreciate it. Giving us a lot to think about, and, uh, we just really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on.

Ben 49:33 This was a fun conversation. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie 49:36 Absolutely. Alright. Yay.

Matt 49:38 Alright. So we'll just stop that,

Ben 49:39 and

Matt 49:39 then we'll just let everything