Stephanie 0:01 Welcome to the Curiosity Current, the podcast where we dive deep into what's shaping today's trends and tomorrow's consumers. I'm your host, Stephanie, and I'm so glad you're joining me. Each episode, we tap into the minds of researchers, innovators, and insights professionals to explore how curiosity drives discovery and how discovery drives better decisions in an ever changing market landscape. Whether you're a data enthusiast, a strategy pro, or like me, just endlessly fascinated by human behavior, this is the place for you. So get ready to challenge your assumptions, spark some fresh thinking, and have some fun along the way. Let's see where curiosity takes us next with this brand new episode. Today on the Curiosity Current, we're joined by Lindsay Goodman, a consumer insights leader with over fifteen years of experience at top global brands like Nike and Wolverine worldwide.

Matt 0:58 Lindsay currently leads the consumer insights and market intelligence efforts at Wolverine worldwide, where she's driving innovation and product development for some of the most well known brands in footwear and apparel, including Merrell, Saucony, and Chaco. Her work blends deep ethnographic research with cutting edge digital tools, helping brands stay ahead of the curve by truly understanding what consumers want and need.

Stephanie 1:19 We are gonna be diving into how ethnography can uncover hidden insights, why democratizing consumer data is more important than ever, and finally, how Lindsay's approach is helping brands like Wolverine worldwide innovate and grow in a rapidly changing market. Lindsay, welcome to the Curiosity Current.

Lindsey 1:38 Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie 1:41 We're happy to have you.

Matt 1:43 We're very happy to have you. So you've spent years leading consumer insights teams at major brands, Nike, Wolverine worldwide, house of major brands. Ethnography really seems to be a core part of your approach. What initially sparked your interest in ethnography?

Stephanie We're happy to have you.

Matt 1:43 We're very happy to have you. So you've spent years leading consumer insights teams at major brands, Nike, Wolverine worldwide, house of major brands. Ethnography really seems to be a core part of your approach. What initially sparked your interest in ethnography?

Lindsey 1:59 In my humble opinion, I think it's the most interesting and, honestly, the most fun part of the consumer insights playbook. Sure. You know, every party loves a a good choice based conjoined, but, you know, there's really nothing more impactful or or more human than just talking to consumers in their natural habitat. It's kinda where everything clicks. You're no longer just looking at numbers. You're watching behavior. You're hearing emotions. You're seeing the environment that influences decisions, and so it really turns data into dimension, I think. And I think what first drew me to ethnography was that sense of immersion. I've always been curious, maybe annoyingly so, about the why behind behaviors. And ethnography doesn't just help you observe. It it helps you feel what the consumer feels. It really creates empathy, not just insight. And so over the past year, I've done a lot of work helping our stakeholders across the organization understand what an insight actually is and how ethnography is kind of that secret door to unlock it. I kinda think of it as a triangle model, if you will. So the base is, like, data points. Right? It's raw data. So let's say, you know, 60% of consumers wear sneakers to hike. That's a data point. It's interesting, but it's just a data point. If you go up a level, you've got findings. Right? Like, men are more likely to wear hiking boots than women. Okay. That's an interesting trend in the data, but the top of the triangle, that's where the insight lives. So in this example I'm using, you know, we did a project with Meryl. And in talking to female hikers, we discovered that comfort and safety were super important to them, but shopping for technical hiking boots was really intimidating, and it felt overwhelming. And they weren't sure that they saw themselves represented, so they defaulted to what was already in their closet. That's an insight. That's a problem we can actually solve, and that's something I don't think we would have uncovered by just looking at numbers.

Matt 3:46 That makes a lot of sense. You would have had to climb several ladders on, like, you know, the why journey to get there that you just couldn't have done in a traditional research approach. lem we can actually solve, and that's something I don't think we would have uncovered by just looking at numbers. That makes a lot of sense. You would have had to climb several ladders on, like, you know, the why journey to get there that you just couldn't have done in a traditional research approach.

Lindsey 3:56 So we did an ethnography a few years back with Roadrunners. And I'm not a runner, and so I have this preconception of runners as being, like, health freaks, green juice drinkers, protein shakes, all this stuff. And what we found was that these consumers were not eating healthy to run better. They were running so that they could eat unhealthy. And I mean, like, these are some of the unhealthiest eaters I've ever seen. They basically are running for donuts and for beer. And I think what's so funny about this is it didn't matter where we were. We went to San Diego, Toronto, London. Someone seemed to bring up doughnuts everywhere we went. And so it was both hilarious, but also deeply insightful. And so I think that theme gave us that cultural permission to lean into that fun of the collab, and it really made it you feel playful and authentic and not forced.

Matt 4:49 That's super interesting. That resonates with me. I definitely run for the ability to just eat gobs of unhealthy food rather than particular health goals. Yeah. I hear that. I feel that.

Stephanie 5:01 In particular, I wanna talk about this statement that that you talk about, which is democratizing insights through ethnography. I wanna know, like, what does that mean to you, and why is it so important?

Lindsey 5:13 I'd say in its simplest form, democratizing insights means making research and data something everyone can use, not just researchers or executives or strategists. It's really about removing that gatekeeping and helping everyone in the organization, whether you're in product or marketing or finance or sales. Everyone can connect with the consumer. And I think ethnography is such a powerful way to do that because it doesn't require a background in research to understand it. It's just grounded in human connection. When you see a consumer's lived experience, what frustrates them, what excites them, what their real needs are, you can't unsee that. It just clicks. And suddenly, it's not just a research finding in a deck. It's a consumer truth you feel. And for me, that's what makes it so important right now. You know? I think the companies that win are the ones that are consumer obsessed, and you can't build a consumer centric culture if only a handful of people ever meet their consumer. And so democratizing insights, uh, to me, it's not just a buzzword. It's really a shift in mindset. It's saying, hey. You don't need to be a researcher to care about this stuff. You just need curiosity and access. ssed, and you can't build a consumer centric culture if only a handful of people ever meet their consumer. And so democratizing insights, uh, to me, it's not just a buzzword. It's really a shift in mindset. It's saying, hey. You don't need to be a researcher to care about this stuff. You just need curiosity and access.

Matt 6:17 We're We're gonna be talking about ethnography a lot today, but I do wanna just back up for a second and give you a little bit of space to talk about where ethnography sits in your larger toolkit. Because I know at Wolverine Worldwide, you had shared, you you know, you have a an interesting framework for exploring insights in a more comprehensive way. So if you could just talk to us a little bit about that and where ethnography plays its particular role. talk about where ethnography sits in your larger toolkit. Because I know at Wolverine Worldwide, you had shared, you you know, you have a an interesting framework for exploring insights in a more comprehensive way. So if you could just talk to us a little bit about that and where ethnography plays its particular role.

Lindsey 6:40 I'm glad you asked this question because as much as I love ethnography, it's really only one piece of the puzzle. And so at Wolverine Road Glide, we use a framework we call hindsight, insight, foresight. So think of it as kind of three overlapping lenses that, you know, when used together, give us this full three sixty view of the consumer. So hindsight is all about looking back. You know, what has already happened? This is where our market intelligence team lives. They're analyzing sales data and market share shifts and competitive performance. It's foundational. It's important for us to know where we've been in order to know where we're going. Right? Insight is the now. It's where we're digging into current consumer behaviors, perceptions, unmet needs, motivations, and ethnography fits squarely here. It's a tool we use to understand that human context behind the behavior that we're seeing in the numbers. And then there's foresight, which is probably the most interesting but ambiguous of the three. It's about identifying kinda signals, watching cultural shifts, anticipating future consumer behavior. It's not about predicting the future with certainty, but it's about preparing ourselves for the possibilities that may shape the market as we look to the future. So I can give you a great example of how these have come together for us. You know, a few years back, our hindsight data showed us that Saucony had really strong equity in trail running, higher than you'd expect based on the level of investment we were making, so that was a clue. And then we launched a global trail running ethnography, and we found that trail runners were really burned out on kinda heavy, overbuilt shoes. They were craving something that still performed but felt like they're road running shoes, something that was lighter and simpler and more versatile. And then in foresight, we were starting to see these emerging signals around life becoming more fluid and work and play and travel all blending together and this desire for personalization and kinda multifunctionality in the products that they were buying. And so when you overlap those three, you get this really clear consumer opportunity. And from that, we ended up building not one, but two product franchises. One of them was brand new. One of them was reimagined version of an existing one. And those franchises have gone on to become some of our best performing lines in the trail category. And so it really is that triangulation that turns insight into action. So ethnography is one part of it, but it's really powerful when you get all three.

Stephanie 9:02 Do you have a particular example where ethnography revealed something about consumers or your customers that that really did surprise you? ory. And so it really is that triangulation that turns insight into action. So ethnography is one part of it, but it's really powerful when you get all three. Do you have a particular example where ethnography revealed something about consumers or your customers that that really did surprise you?

Lindsey 9:10 That's a good question. I think this is where ethnography really flexes its muscles. Right? Surveys are great for scale, but they're limited by what you ask. You only get answers to the questions that you thought to pose, and those answers are usually structured and tend to be surface level. Focus groups, sure, they can help a bit more, but they also often fall victim to groupthink and dominant voices or consumers telling you what they think you wanna hear. Ethnography, as, you know, we said earlier, really helps you observe people in their element. All that ego is gone. The structure is gone. It's just very human, and it's about the connection. I mentioned this earlier, but we did that trail running study, and I'll never forget, we were in Chamonix, France, which we don't always go to glamorous places like that. But Chamonix is like a mecca for trail runners. And I remember one of the runners said something that was so moving that it shifted how one of our designers thought about footwear and their work for years. And I mentioned this earlier. Like, I have stakeholders that still quote me from that same runner long after the research has ended. I'd say, like, another really good example is yeah. I was talking earlier about runners and how they eat. But another one that really stuck with me was how many runners, even those that were logging 50 plus miles a week, refused to call themselves runners. And we were seeing it in survey data. We were seeing, like we were talking to these people who were runners. They're running a lot. And we would ask them directly, do you consider yourself a runner? Do you call yourself a runner? And we were, like, getting a lot of no's. The percentages were really low. We were, that's so confusing. Why is that? It wasn't until we did ethnography and we were talking to consumers that we were able to uncover that something about that label felt elite and almost illusionary. We saw running as part of their lifestyle, but not something that defined them, and so they were uncomfortable with that label. And that insight, it really made us rethink how we talk about running, who our messaging includes or accidentally excludes. And it really reminded us that, like, identity is a nuance thing, and the brand language that we use, it really needs to reflect that. And so, again, that's something that I just don't think you get unless you do ethnography. Otherwise, that just would have been sort of a data point floating out there that we would be confused about, probably still today, but ethnography really unleashes that deeper understanding. use, it really needs to reflect that. And so, again, that's something that I just don't think you get unless you do ethnography. Otherwise, that just would have been sort of a data point floating out there that we would be confused about, probably still today, but ethnography really unleashes that deeper understanding.

Matt 11:38 Was it that they almost saw it as an aspirational title that they had not yet achieved, or was it just that it brought up an image that they didn't necessarily fully associate themselves with? I'm just curious. Because that would kind of have implications for how you act on that insight.

Lindsey 11:58 I think a little bit of both, but I think really it was more more the latter. I think they think of runners as professional runners, just like elite competitors, people who were doing it for a living, people who were professionals. And so in some cases, maybe some of the consumers we were talking to aspire for that. But for the most part, our consumer, our target consumer for that brand, they're just people, and they run. They're parents, they're students, they're work in the corporate world. They're just people, and running is one thing that they do. It's a very important thing. It's a very meaningful thing to them, but it's just one part of who they are, and they don't want to to be identified as sort of one dimensional.

Matt 12:39 No. That's great. And the and this ethnographic approach enabled you to really suss out all of that nuance in a way that really drove true understanding. That's very cool. I'm curious, you have this emphasis on deep ethnographic understanding, and you alluded to it at the beginning of the talk. It's a different vibe, it's a different approach than say your typical choice based conjoined segmentation, you name it. Do you find you have challenges sharing those results out? When it comes time to actually tell the Insights story, do you have ways that you have to go about really helping your stakeholders to understand the importance and to understand the finding given that you're sharing it with them in sort of a different way? it. Do you find you have challenges sharing those results out? When it comes time to actually tell the Insights story, do you have ways that you have to go about really helping your stakeholders to understand the importance and to understand the finding given that you're sharing it with them in sort of a different way?

Lindsey 13:25 One thing that we do here is we one of the methods we employ is is a process called four d. It's rooted in design thinking. It's all about embedding empathy into the innovation process, and it really works beautifully for ethnography because it keeps consumers front and center every step of the way. I'll break it down for you. So the four d's are define, discover, dream, and design. And so first, we define what we wanna learn. Maybe it's understanding the mindset of a trail runner or the pain points of a work boot consumer. Then we move into discover, and that's the field work. So we take cross functional teams with us, which is key. It's not just the insight teams in a vacuum. It's designers. It's marketers. It's it's salespeople. Everyone hearing it firsthand, whether that's in person, which we prefer, in person ethnography, or mobile ethnography, which we did quite a bit of in the post COVID era. And then comes Dream, and this kinda goes to answering your question. We come back together in a workshop setting, and we start clustering what we heard together. So tensions, unmet needs, consumer quotes that stuck with us. It's not about my team presenting the insights to the team. It's about uncovering the insights with the team, and that shared ownership is what really makes it stick. It helps feed into that last d, which is design, and that's where we use what we've uncovered together to spark new product ideas, messaging platforms, strategies. It's a whole journey. By the time we're done, the stakeholders are so immersed in it that they don't just remember the insights. They're championing them. They are advocating for them because they felt them and experienced them firsthand.

Matt 15:03 They were there for the journey. I think that's such a great approach. Having had a bit of exposure to design thinking methods, that that really resonates. I mean, having cross collaborative group with you from the start, it also helps you as the researcher, right? I mean, it helps you kind of frame questions in a way that you know are going to be easier for maybe people who weren't lucky enough to be part of the Project Digest. You know, you can incorporate all those multiple viewpoints. I think that's just such a terrific advantage that a design thinking empowered ethnographic approach, that rolls off the tongue, really, really can provide a lot of advantage.

Stephanie 15:39 I can see that. cky enough to be part of the Project Digest. You know, you can incorporate all those multiple viewpoints. I think that's just such a terrific advantage that a design thinking empowered ethnographic approach, that rolls off the tongue, really, really can provide a lot of advantage. I can see that.

Matt 15:40 It occurs to me that central to ethnography working, it is intimate to a degree. It emphasizes connection to a point that some other approaches don't. However, at Wolverine worldwide, you have a house of brands where each brand has a very different target persona. How do you balance that? Because do you have to tailor the ethnographic approach? Or do you have to tailor your methods in any way given that the consumers you're speaking to, it's so important to get to that that deep level of connection, but they're just so different from one another.

Lindsey 16:18 It's definitely a mix of both. Right? We have foundational toolkits, methodologies, and frameworks that we think work across the portfolio, but I wouldn't say we're running a one size fits all playbook. I think, to your point, each brand has its own identity, its own consumer target, its own set of business priorities, and so we have to adapt accordingly. And I think, you know, for example, the way we connect with a blue collar work boot consumer is gonna look different from how we engage with a Gen z lifestyle consumer. That work boot consumer, they're probably not posting, you know, outfit of the day pics on Instagram, and and we're probably not gonna get them to download an ethnography app on their phone. So in those cases, we'll go to them. We'll go to job sites, we'll interview them face to face, we'll make it informal and low tech. And frankly, you know, those conversations are still gold. They're real. They're unfiltered. They're deeply practical. And so they're great. Contrast that with how we might engage a Gen z consumer. They're digital natives. We'll use mobile ethnography. We can ask them to upload photos or create video diaries. They're gonna wanna show us their closets and their style rituals and their TikTok or Instagram inspiration. Same core goal. Right? Empathy and insight, but maybe different methods. I'd say, though, where we stay consistent is on the back end. How we're synthesizing insights, how we're sharing them across the business, how we activate them through things like the four d process we just talked about, that's the system that creates consistency. I'd say the front end approach, you know, always flexes based on the consumer we're trying to understand.

Stephanie 17:51 So I'm gonna take us back in time a little bit from Wolverine Worldwide and ask you a question going back to your Converse days. I'm curious, how did the consumer insights team there use ethnography? And, again, is there any kind of specific instance that you could talk through where this kind of qualitative research, specifically ethnography, directly influenced a major shift in a product or a brand strategy? n going back to your Converse days. I'm curious, how did the consumer insights team there use ethnography? And, again, is there any kind of specific instance that you could talk through where this kind of qualitative research, specifically ethnography, directly influenced a major shift in a product or a brand strategy?

Lindsey 18:17 Converse is is such an amazing brand with such a unique fan base. Honestly, I I have an example from Converse as probably one of my favorite examples of ethnography in action. When I was there, we ran a global online community where consumers could engage with us and each other. We would use it for feedback, pose kinda exploratory questions, uh, trend spotting. The best part about it, though, was that it was interactive. So people could upload photos. They could start their own threads. They could comment on each other's stuff. It was sort of a window into their world that we didn't have to moderate or control. We could just kind of watch it unfold. And one day, a community member shared a photo of their Chuck Taylors completely covered in doodles and hand drawn artwork, and they talked about how they had worn them during this really meaningful time in their life and how each drawing was tied to a specific memory and wasn't just a shoe. It was, like, their personal time capsule. And what happened next was just incredible. So dozens and then hundreds of other members started sharing their own trucks. Some of them were, like, signed by musicians or colored with the Sharpies or unique laces or they personalized them but with patches or pins. And everyone had a story, and they were all telling this story of self expression through their shoes. Now, like, we already knew that customization was, like, a customization was, like, a big part of the Chuck Taylor legacy, but this felt a little bit different. It was emotional. It was storytelling, and we didn't ask for it. It just happened organically, and that's so cool.

Matt 19:48 I wanted to go back just briefly to something you you mentioned, which was finding ways to continue to do ethnographic research through the COVID nineteen pandemic, which just completely turned the qualitative research world on its head. I can't imagine the trials and tribulations you had to endure to make that work. I was just curious if you could talk us through that experience a little bit. inding ways to continue to do ethnographic research through the COVID nineteen pandemic, which just completely turned the qualitative research world on its head. I can't imagine the trials and tribulations you had to endure to make that work. I was just curious if you could talk us through that experience a little bit.

Lindsey 20:12 This is where we really started to lean into mobile ethnography, and we started something called the COVID nineteen consumer tracker during that time. And it was really a game changer, especially during such a chaotic and uncertain time. We couldn't travel, couldn't sit down with consumers in person, and so mobile ethnography became a lifeline for my team. We had people sharing video diaries and uploading photos and, you know, recording themselves, And it was a way to bring us right into their homes and still see their routines and understand their emotional states, and it gave us that real time window into how people were coping and adapting and really, like, reprioritizing their lives. But the trick isn't just collecting the insights. It's kinda keeping the momentum going. And that part for us kinda came down to two things, relevance and rhythm, I'd say. So if the tracker was just saying consumers are still anxious week after week, it starts to lose impact. And so we were layering in special topics like how people were redefining their wellness, how their shopping behaviors were changing around home and comfort, just kinda small lifestyle shifts and things like that. And through that, we were able to catch kinda early signals of things like the slipper boom and the spike in rail interest. And we're able to kinda pivot quickly in some cases because we were paying attention, not just to that headline emotion, but to those kinda undercurrents and the little behavioral changes that are happening around it. And then kind of the rhythm part is just keeping the cadence tight. You know, we didn't let insights pile up in a report that was just gathering dust in a graveyard somewhere. You know, we shared things as they emerged, whether it was just sort of like a quick email or a highlight reel or a quote. The more you make it feel alive, the more likely it is that that people will act on it.

Matt 21:55 Are there particular voices, particular brands, or ad agencies, consultancies, whatever it is, that maybe are doing a better job of paying attention to this segment than others that you can think of? Like, who who should we go to? Who should we look to as the leaders if we wanna effect this change? t. Are there particular voices, particular brands, or ad agencies, consultancies, whatever it is, that maybe are doing a better job of paying attention to this segment than others that you can think of? Like, who who should we go to? Who should we look to as the leaders if we wanna effect this change?

Lindsey 22:10 Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be me because I don't know. Mostly, I've been really influenced by Michael Clinton's work. Again, he is not paying me for this. He's just my source of interest here, but he has a whole website, and it it's one part of it is consumer facing. It's for this 50 plus community to talk to each other, and the other side is sort of business facing. And so I know he's doing a lot of work with companies to help them understand how to better market to this audience, but I I don't know. And I think that's kinda my point, is that I don't think anyone's really talking about this. And these are people that have loads and loads of disposable income, and they do care about style, and they do and they are active, and they are all the things we want them to be. And we're sitting on a gold mine, I think. All of us are.

Matt 23:01 We can be the change. We we could start it right now.

Lindsey 23:05 Yes. Let's do it. ve loads and loads of disposable income, and they do care about style, and they do and they are active, and they are all the things we want them to be. And we're sitting on a gold mine, I think. All of us are.

Matt 23:01 We can be the change. We we could start it right now.

Lindsey 23:05 Yes. Let's do it.

Matt 23:07 Duh. That's great. Somewhat related to to our conversation today on ethnography and passion for studying individuals, you know, for learning about people driving our our career choices. I just wanted to mention for my little segment here that I had the pleasure of attending IIEX North America in DC just past week dating the episode, but that's okay. It was really interesting for me to see the topics, not necessarily the topics of sessions that various researchers, brands, and agencies bring to the show, but the undertones of those sessions, the sort of like driving current, no pun intended, behind what's making people talk about the things that they're talking about. And obviously, data integrity is a big topic in our field right now. That was one topic. But alongside that, a lot of talk really getting back to this idea of empathy. I found that interesting because we've been having a lot of conversations on the show with insights leaders who through one way or another, our conversation will almost eventually always turn to empathy as a driving force in their career aspirations, their passion for insights. And it's been interesting to observe this cyclical nature in the insights industry where know, a few years ago, we were talking about empathy a lot. It was almost sort of reached this phase, I would say, where it'd be easy to kind of write it off as a buzzword. Like, it was sort of in all of the corporate briefings. A lot of people were talking about it. Like, hey, we're gonna do this empathy thing, and we're gonna be empathetic. And then, I don't know, I kinda feel like it it by the wayside to some degree for a few years as we kinda collectively, as an industry, kinda moved on to the next shiny thing. And now we're in this space where everything is tech, everything is AI, everything has changed, changed, changed, changed, social upheaval, yada, yada, yada. And I think because of that, we're starting to see this reemergence of a growth in interest in in empathy again. Like, maybe there was something to that. You know? Kind of like as an industry, we're thinking this passion, this true human impulse to feel and understand others in a in a really meaningful way might actually be something core to to who we are as as professionals. And I just think it's cool to see that. I think it's interesting to see the cyclical nature of things. And, also, you know, we're all consumer insights nerds, and we love studying people. So I I'd love to see that particular topic sort of getting another a second, third moment in the spotlight. are as as professionals. And I just think it's cool to see that. I think it's interesting to see the cyclical nature of things. And, also, you know, we're all consumer insights nerds, and we love studying people. So I I'd love to see that particular topic sort of getting another a second, third moment in the spotlight.

Stephanie 25:40 Yeah. It's a good one, Matt. Well, just to round us out here with a I can't even call this tangentially related, but I'm gonna develop a reputation for doing this, going way off topic. My undercurrent sort of thing I'm nerding out about this week is a book I'm reading called Everything is Tuberculosis by John Green. It is a nonfiction book. It's about the history and persistence of tuberculosis. I think, you know, the book essentially is is just positing that people think of TB as this disease of the past, but in reality, it's not. I think ten million people will be diagnosed with tuberculosis this year. And we know the direct cause is, of course, the bacteria, but Greene's argument in the book is that the real cause of TB in the twenty first century is humans I'll say consumers, so it'll be relevant. It's consumers. Just kidding. My point is we know how to kill this bacteria. It's that human choice, human built systems, though, are the root cause. So it's just this book that dives into the social determinants of health, things like poverty, lack of education, and and systems that are format through one boy's, one young man's experience in Sierra Leone. So it's a really powerful you know, I think, Matt, back to your point about empathy, when it's told that way, it really has the ability to draw you in. Right? Because it is a story about one person kinda navigating this reality. It's a sobering read, but it's definitely a worthwhile one. So

Matt 27:11 Sounds worthwhile.

Lindsey 27:12 Nice.

Stephanie 27:13 Alright. Well, Lindsay, thanks again so much for joining us today. I have to say, this is definitely one of our more, besides the end there, fun episodes to record, so many fun examples from your work. So we really appreciated getting to know about you and your work.

Lindsey 27:27 Yeah. Thank you for having me. This was fun.

Matt 27:30 Thank you.

Stephanie 27:33 The Curiosity Current is brought to you by AYTM. To find out how AYTM helps brands connect with consumers and bring insights to life, visit aytm.com. And to make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the Curiosity Current on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time.