Hassan 0:01 Experience becomes really important because people are putting this effort into drive over, and they're making the decision. And sometimes convenience, we know, is a really big factor when you're shopping in store. And generally, people that have recently looked at abstract art or gone through the experience will see the world in a different way, and we measure that by even seeing, like, how they see themselves positioned to the rest of the world if we ask them to dry. So it's a really interesting thing because it promotes some pro environmental behaviors. It shapes how you think about yourself and your actions onto the world. There's a lot of different behaviors, and especially in grocery, as consumers, we're learning. And I think as retailers, we're in this feedback cycle of try to see how you build a basket online.

Stephanie 0:40 Welcome to the Curiosity Current, the podcast where we dive deep into what's shaping today's trends and tomorrow's consumers. I'm your host, Stephanie, and I'm so glad you're joining me. Each episode, we tap into the minds of researchers, innovators, and insights professionals to explore how curiosity drives discovery and how discovery drives better decisions in an ever changing market landscape. Whether you're a data enthusiast, a strategy pro, or like me just endlessly fascinated by human behavior, this is the place for you. So get ready to challenge your assumptions, spark some fresh thinking, and have some fun along the way. Let's see where curiosity takes us next with this brand new episode. Welcome back to the Curiosity Currents, a market research podcast by AYTN. Today, I'm joined on the hosting side by Julie Meyer, senior insights analyst on AYTM's product team. Julie, thanks so much for joining. My pleasure. Both Julie and I are behavioral scientists. We are social psychologists by training, and that's why I thought it would be great to have Julie as an interview partner for today's guests. So let's introduce our guest. Doctor Hassan Alim is a senior consumer insights partner at Amazon, where he focuses on leveraging behavioral science and neuroscience to uncover deep consumer insights that drive business strategy. Hassan's experience spans across consumer psychology, UX research, and euroaesthetics with the unifying goal of creating meaningful data informed experiences.

Julie 2:14 Before joining Amazon, Hassan was a behavioral science consultant for Nuance Behavior, working with clients to build neuroscience informed products and a UX researcher at Creative Science. His academic journey includes pioneering work in neuroaesthetics and sensory substitution at Georgetown University, where he explored how the brain processes beauty and sensory experiences.

Stephanie 2:35 In this episode, we'll explore the challenges and opportunities of measuring consumer sentiments and behaviors in grocery context, and how behavioral science can help us understand the subconscious drivers behind decision making. Hassan, welcome to the show.

Hassan 2:50 Thank you. So excited to be here. hanie: In this episode, we'll explore the challenges and opportunities of measuring consumer sentiments and behaviors in grocery context, and how behavioral science can help us understand the subconscious drivers behind decision making. Hassan, welcome to the show. Thank you. So excited to be here.

Stephanie 2:51 We're excited to have you. To get us started, and this is a question I really like to hear from all of our guests. Your career obviously blends cutting edge behavioral science and neuroscience with consumer insights, and you've worked on everything from UX research to neuroaesthetics. Do you mind just kind of walking us through how you got to where you are in your career? Like, what is the origin story of Hassan Alim? f our guests. Your career obviously blends cutting edge behavioral science and neuroscience with consumer insights, and you've worked on everything from UX research to neuroaesthetics. Do you mind just kind of walking us through how you got to where you are in your career? Like, what is the origin story of Hassan Alim?

Hassan 3:15 My journey started in academia, but I, uh, even going into it, like, uh, like Julie mentioned, I completed my distribution in neuroaesthetics, but that necessarily wasn't what I knew I was gonna go and prereq engineer to do. But it just became a really interesting question because I was really interested in preferences, and I was really interested in this broader concept of, like, going beyond more easy to understand and looking at, like, from these esoteric questions like beauty and art, uh, which have been generally out of the brass of psychology and especially out of the brass of neuroscience. But at that time, neuropsychics is kinda coming into here. So became really interesting to me. And as I was computing that, it the overlap with the with marketing became really apparent. In one of the last days I computed, I looked at marketing literature, a business school leadership, Brian and Son, like, what have other people measured and how people's coverage change over time, how would they develop, how can you learn some of those methodologies. So it was kind of like a a natural pathway to, well, I'm exploring this, like, really esoteric topics, but now these are actually things that marketers and business schools and stuff are really interested in. And aside from that, I was thinking I always kind of knew that academia wasn't going to be as much as I enjoyed the learning process, and I hear myself as a contributing learner, wasn't going to be where I wanted to be. I wanted to be very much in applied studying. I wanted to be a little bit more into the the messiness of the real world. So after wrapping up, I ended up doing consulting with DistopOut, and that kind of got me into this space of, like, working the digital experiences. And many times, you know, neuroscience is relevant there, but most of the times, they're kind of basing a lot of your insights and your thoughts from, like, fundamental first sprints bookings that you learn about psychology and cognitive science. And that kind of continues to be the the pred that, you know, helps me throughout this day working in the in the grocery retail space. And that jump, I think the I guess, the parts of the significant jump is going with them in these three from, like, this big digital world, working with apps, working with digital experiences, working with websites and UX to go to certain retail, which is very, very physical. I had always been really interested in I I'm one of those people that likes to be at the grocery store. I noticed when there are certain promotions happening, I've noticed how things are organized, and I've always been like, oh, I think that was maybe one of my first even insights to myself of, like, okay. You know, maybe I sort of explore psychology, uh, etcetera. So when this opportunity came about, I was really excited because, you know, I was just thinking about it and came to look like Gursey is such a fascinating and I'm I'm sure what they didn't care if the mitty gritty of it was such a fascinating space because food is a decision that we make our base in the day, a month becomes a day. But it's also a bit too early. There's some social factors. It's so so incredibly rich when you think about, you know, Zooming out and, like, what's on our snack kind of versus, like, what we have to shop and eat every day and put in our bodies. It's such a richer space. Um, uh, it's been really, really interesting learning so many things. oo early. There's some social factors. It's so so incredibly rich when you think about, you know, Zooming out and, like, what's on our snack kind of versus, like, what we have to shop and eat every day and put in our bodies. It's such a richer space. Um, uh, it's been really, really interesting learning so many things.

Stephanie 6:07 Totally. That makes so much sense. And I have to say, like, when I was thinking about what it is that you study and especially in the context of subconscious drivers of behavior, that the grocery store is one of those contexts where it's so easy to see the impact of subconscious drivers because I go to the grocery store with intention always. I know. I like, I'm not just there for fun. I always go with a plan, But it never turns out the way it's never aligned with the intentions. There are so many things that happen that were not planned for the cart to have in it. And so it really does bring to life the way that subconscious stimuli and drivers and even processes within your own mind totally impact what happens in that store. So fascinating context.

Julie 6:51 So going off of that in terms of what that grocery store context is really unique in in being able to understand consumer behavior, what do you see as the biggest challenges in accurately capturing those fluctuating consumer sentiments in such a dynamic setting?

Hassan 7:07 Like you said, what what makes it really exciting and interesting is what also makes it really hard to measure and tell apart. One of, like, the real physical challenges is that it is a physical space. We can't really easily do AB testing, and I think that's a fundamental challenge that when you're looking at iteration, you know, coming from a UX space and app design, etcetera, like, you can come up with a lot of Figma designs. You can really kind of iterate, get really rapid prototypes and feedback. Even getting a rapid prototype out there for a physical grocery space, not only are you like, that's costly, but you're also disrupting real behavior because there's no retail space setting generally that you can go into and kind of try things out. So you're taking you have to kind of weigh the risks of testing in a real store because at the end of the day, like, you're disrupting people's behaviors and people have loyalty that they repeat, uh, you're wanting to come back. So so there is that I think that's the fundamental issue is that you're dealing with a physical space and testing control become difficult, and there's different markets and regional differences that come about. So and those are much more apparent at a in a physical retail space than they would be for an average user. You can kind of look at you know, open up Instagram and kind of sure there's differences, but you can kind of think of it as, like, okay. Let's look at the global user and test this worldwide. And but for something like grocery, sometimes you really have to hone in on cultural differences that come about with specific lesions. kind of look at you know, open up Instagram and kind of sure there's differences, but you can kind of think of it as, like, okay. Let's look at the global user and test this worldwide. And but for something like grocery, sometimes you really have to hone in on cultural differences that come about with specific lesions.

Stephanie 8:27 That makes a lot of sense. I wanna kinda talk a little bit about the methodologies that you use. You know, over the past ten or fifteen years, neuroscience, behavioral science are obviously increasingly being used to better understand consumer behavior, often through covering and measuring the subconscious drivers of behavior. I think Julie and I have probably both kind of followed this with some interest having come from the backgrounds ourselves where, you know, we were studying these same things. But how can these fields that obviously got their start in, like, basic science and basic research help us understand behavior in these applied settings of in store shopping and purchase behavior? Like, how do you do it? I mean, it's a challenge, and rounds ourselves where, you know, we were studying these same things. But how can these fields that obviously got their start in, like, basic science and basic research help us understand behavior in these applied settings of in store shopping and purchase behavior? Like, how do you do it? I mean, it's a challenge, and

Hassan 9:08 a lot of times you have to think about proxies of behavior. And so one of the nice things with grocery store behaviors that you can actually look at outcome metrics and look at, you know, purchase rates. You can look at return rates and how often people are buying. You can look at baskets and basket sizes and basket compositions. So those are some really interesting things that kind of tell you to help you do segmentation and try to, like, basically look at person that is coming in. Can we classify them as somebody who is just doing a few things, shopping up, topping up their basket, or are they actually coming there for their full grocery shop? Uh, what are the most common co located items that they put in their grocery cart when they actually shop something? So there's a lot of interesting outcomes of behaviors that you can look at to see, you know, we made a change in a display or end cap in a grocery store for a specific type of pasta, for example, like, did that actually lead to more people buying it? So that's, I think, the best kind of corollary for behavior. But aside from that, you know, we we also do try to look at feedback surveys. So, like, in the generally, in a grocery context, people will try to have some sort of customer feedback systems that they've set up. And you might be familiar with this when you go to the store, you see your receipt on the bottom. It says, like, hey. Give us feedback. And I think you see that even at fast food restaurants, so many places. That's actually things sometimes you you might think like, okay. I'm just tossing that and looking at it. There's actually a lot of interest in looking at that type of feedback. And, of course, like, you have to think about the selection bias that goes into that for people that are willingly responding, but we we take special precautions to make sure that the eliminate that bias as much as we can. But that is a great metric because you can actually look at people's satisfaction and a whole bunch of other aspects that you can ask custom questions there, and then you're able to kind of tie that to actual purchase behavior. So that's where kind of the behavior comes in. You have the receipt data as you can see this customer bought these items. What are the general perceptions? What did they come in for? What are they did they see the sign while in the store? So we can kind of ask more topical questions at that time and then kind of tie back into here based on their actual receipts. So I would say that's probably one of, like, the closest tie. But in addition to that, we also do custom studies that you can go into the store, methodologies that I think in the grocery setting, just like in the household setting, like, the closer we can get to ethnography, the more fruitful it is because there are, like you said, so many unspoken and implicit shapers of behavior. So a classic methodology is a shop along where you kinda shop along with a customer while they walk through. And and just like you would in a online talk out loud method, uh, interview, you kind of have the customer talk out loud as they navigate the store, kind of observe and and try not to interrupt their mantra flow. And you can also do interset, so you can kind of get a combination of people that are walking in the store, and then you can kinda see immediately people's reactions or thoughts as they how a behavior in the store, and you can kind of ask them as they're walking out, for example, as they're walking in. So catching them in the right context and tying that to behavior is probably the closest way that we can try to get, like, fundamentally to measure behavior just because it's such a people come into the store for different needs, for different reasons, for a different time. So the better we can get at, like, being in the context with them, the more use for the data is. t to behavior is probably the closest way that we can try to get, like, fundamentally to measure behavior just because it's such a people come into the store for different needs, for different reasons, for a different time. So the better we can get at, like, being in the context with them, the more use for the data is.

Stephanie 12:08 Got it. And it sounds like I mean, from everything you you said that you're really marrying up a lot of different kinds of data from, like, ethnography and some survey data, but also transactional data. Right? At the end of the day, your outcome metrics are right there in that point of sale data.

Hassan 12:25 Absolutely. I think at any grocery retailer, you'll see that, like, you know, that is ultimately the bottom line, and I think it's a little becomes a little harder to connect that bottom line when you're thinking of, like, an online and app world where it's okay. We have daily active users. Is that the bottom line? What is our KPIs? I think with the grocery spreading, it's just a little easier to say, like, you know, are we getting these purchase rates? Are we getting repeat rates? Are we getting share of wallet? So there's a lot of I think inherently, like, the monetary aspect of it is really closely tied. And and I think as a behavioral scientist, like, I think that's a good thing because as much as we do, uh, and I personally also, you know, coming from the world of aesthetics, like, there's this whole I do value what people's believe as a brand and buy in in terms of, like, perceptions and all that stuff, but, ultimately, it's where your wallet speaks is is what shapes the world. So that does definitely is a critical component there.

Julie 13:14 And then tying that with what Stephanie was saying about basic research and to apply, how then can we take all of this different data? How can brands use this data to inform strategies they can take to enhance customer loyalty or other sorts of in store experiences? ely is a critical component there. And then tying that with what Stephanie was saying about basic research and to apply, how then can we take all of this different data? How can brands use this data to inform strategies they can take to enhance customer loyalty or other sorts of in store experiences?

Hassan 13:30 I mean, a lot of this, ideally, you know, you're working very closely with these various teams at different levels to help formulate that strategy. So, you know, you have different levels of data coming in at at the, you know, at the very granular level. Like I mentioned, you're actually in the store with people, but you can also kind of zoom out and look at something like a brand tracking survey where you're kind of looking at what do people think about your brand. Are they aware of it? You know, let's look at people that are in the trade area within 10 miles of your brand, and are they actually aware that you exist? Are they aware what do they think about it if they're aware? So you can kind of start from there and and work your way down. And then the level of strategic question that comes from different teams that you're working with, for example, if you're working with, like, a category team that's really interested in, you know, like, hey. We really wanna make sure meat is doing well at our stores, then you can kind of look at perceptions both at the broader level. Like, do people think we have high quality meats? Do they think it's well priced, etcetera? But then you can also then, like, shop the store with people and try to understand, like, why didn't they make this decision? So, ultimately, the questions really come down to the applied sense of, like, hey. Look. We're seeing this in the data. And I think that's where, again, we're kind of data led and purchased led to say, like, we're not seeing we we tried this marketing campaign or we tried this promotion or we're launching this new brand, and we wanna understand, like, are people picking up what we're putting out there, or what are the invisible barriers that we're not learning about? In addition to that, there's also, like, pre rollout. There's working with teams like that to say, like, hey. Can we design this packaging better? And I think that's where a lot of, like, testing comes in at the survey level. So just broadly understanding, but also at the heuristics level of to know, like, well, you you know, the way you design certain packaging is gonna influence people's perception a certain way and how does that roll up. So there's a different few different ways, but, ultimately, what it does come down to is we try to tie to the business decision as much as possible and kind of work very closely with that team in the strategy that they're trying to execute all throughout that journey of that strategy. ain way and how does that roll up. So there's a different few different ways, but, ultimately, what it does come down to is we try to tie to the business decision as much as possible and kind of work very closely with that team in the strategy that they're trying to execute all throughout that journey of that strategy.

Julie 15:23 And then following through from that, you've explored, uh, the concept of instability of preferences over time, particularly in your research on aesthetic preferences. How does this type of instability apply to grocery shopping? You know, when brands are thinking about using promotions or seasonal products or new product launches to try to shift preferences or or shift that actual buying behavior. ility of preferences over time, particularly in your research on aesthetic preferences. How does this type of instability apply to grocery shopping? You know, when brands are thinking about using promotions or seasonal products or new product launches to try to shift preferences or or shift that actual buying behavior.

Hassan 15:45 So just to give some context, I think generally in psychological research, just because of methodological limitations, you measure people's responses once. And and at best, you can try to get it twice or in a lot of, like, anthropology studies, you can get multiple longitudinal measurements. But especially in aesthetics, traditionally, it has been, like, let's measure once, and we kind of label them and say, like, hey. People like symmetrical faces. People like this. But I think anecdotally, we can all agree that, like, our preferences, our design sense, our fashion sense, they've changed dramatically over time. In fact, they change, like, you know, day to day. They change based on a new friend that you make when you travel somewhere. So, clearly, you catching somebody at a specific time with a survey is not giving you the best insight. So that was kind of, like, the fundamental reason to do that. And that now, thankfully, in just in psychology in general, but in aesthetics as well, like, there is more interest to do that. So my goal there was to try to just, like, bring show proof that, like, hey. Look. Our preferences do change, and sometimes they change based on choices. And I think that's the key thing that kind of runs through from marketing studies as well. So at that time, like I mentioned, I looked in the marketing literature to see, like, hey. Is there any marketing work that has looked at preferences change one of a time? And similarly, like, there was a couple studies there, but not so much. But generally, what you see is, like, there's this really tight interaction between choice and preference, and that makes sense because when you choose something, uh, let's say you have two you you go to the store and you're like, okay. I haven't seen these two brands before, but I'm gonna kinda arbitrarily pick one. But my brain is gonna tell me a story that, you know, I I actually liked it better for this reason. And then next time you go, anything that not only that item, but statistically, anything that matches the profile of the item is gonna stand out and capture more attention. And we know that attention ultimately is what leads to more choice and more consideration. So brands in the store can kind of we have the ability to do that by putting an end cap and saying like, hey. We want you to start thinking about functional drinks. Right? So there's a really interesting thing because, like, it's not like we can leave it up to the consumer and but you can also see if a competitor is doing something. Hey. If a competitor starts really focusing on the functional drink that they're putting putting out there, then that is gonna be top of mind. So, like, maybe we should do that too. And so then it becomes like a trend, and then and people kinda start following that. And I think he's generally that's like, oh, now, like, everybody has organic or now, like, you see ashwagandha in every drink that you pick up. That wasn't the case before. And did that just happen naturally? No. It was, like, this cycle of, like, some consumers were aware of it. They started purchasing it. Some stores said, hey. Let's put this up front. That led to more and then led to this virtuous cycle. So it's a really interesting thing, but it's also a little bit kind of, like, same with recommendation engines. I think, for example, if you're have Spotify or Apple Music, there's studies there that show, like, recommendation shapes your preference quite strongly, and people discount that because, of course, we wanna believe that we're the ones that came up with our preferences and you're unique humans. So I think there's a responsibility there as well that comes with humans are naturally flexible creatures, so we have the ability to kind of help shape that. And can we do that in a direction that we think is ultimately of their benefit? ve that we're the ones that came up with our preferences and you're unique humans. So I think there's a responsibility there as well that comes with humans are naturally flexible creatures, so we have the ability to kind of help shape that. And can we do that in a direction that we think is ultimately of their benefit?

Stephanie 18:48 I have a quick question in that the in the vein you were talking about. So you're talking about when I make a purchase, it starts to solidify the preference for that thing, and that that preference can actually extend to related or similar type things too. Did I get that right?

Hassan 19:01 Yes.

Stephanie 19:02 So I'm thinking about the like, that is almost like cognitive dissonance reduction. Right? I bought it, so I must like it. Right? What about the other side that always comes up for me in this context, which is the buyer's remorse side? Like, do you know or do you hypothesize that that works in reverse such that if I purchase and then I have a bad experience, that that starts to then bleed into things that are aesthetically similar and that I would have a lower preference for those things based on my experience with this thing that did not pan out for me.

Hassan 19:33 Yeah. That's such a good question. And, you know, this kinda goes back to, like, the in your aesthetics, the focus generally always has been on, like, beauty and art, but there's this whole other world of ugly and disgusting and preferences to what you're speaking to is, like, you know, we have both valences in in in how we respond to the world and how we navigate the world. It's like we like something, and, generally, that leads to more attention and greater, like, affordances. We we kind of understand it better. Its approach responses go up, but the opposite will happen and should happen for something that, you know, maybe you got at the wrong time and it made you sick. You're just not gonna be thinking about that category anymore at all. And I if I had to, you know, just based on, like, the literature that I'm familiar with, like, it's probably the stronger response because it's more survival protective to say, like, hey. This thing got me sick or if this didn't thing didn't make me feel well, like, I'm just not going in this area at all. So, yes, I think that's a really important risk that you're bringing about is, like, you know, in terms of purchase behaviors. Like, how do we get past that experience where, like, maybe a customer shopped at that category or the item somewhere else, and it just didn't work for them. And and and now, like, they're not even gonna consider that or anything that kind of represents a similar messaging. So there, you have to think about education, etcetera. But, yeah, I would say it's it's a really strong force that I think oftentimes is overlooked because you're always kinda trying to promote choice, but it's always useful to kinda look at, like, well, can we flip that and understand any aversions that people have? . So there, you have to think about education, etcetera. But, yeah, I would say it's it's a really strong force that I think oftentimes is overlooked because you're always kinda trying to promote choice, but it's always useful to kinda look at, like, well, can we flip that and understand any aversions that people have?

Julie 20:56 One thing in particular kind of building on this that I am really curious about is your work on aesthetic mindset and its impact on abstract versus concrete thinking. Can you explain that concept a little bit and then kind of talk about how grocery brands could use this idea to influence consumer behavior? :56] Julie: One thing in particular kind of building on this that I am really curious about is your work on aesthetic mindset and its impact on abstract versus concrete thinking. Can you explain that concept a little bit and then kind of talk about how grocery brands could use this idea to influence consumer behavior?

Hassan 21:13 I wish I had, like, a piece of art right now so I could give you a really abstract answer to a really good question. But I think, generally, the idea is that putting people in a scanner, you can kind of evoke an aesthetic mindset because you can kind of look at the differences and asking people to evaluate something and say, like, hey. What size is this? Or is this a square or not? Or you can ask them, like, tangential questions to the actual aesthetic nature of the stimuli. Or you can say, how beautiful is this? Or how much do you like this? Or, like, you know, how much does this move you? And, generally, we see that, like, when you're thinking about that and when you're in that mindset or generally when you're exposed to art or you look at abstract art, you tend to see the world in a little bit more of an abstract way. And and that's and behaviorally, like, that's been measured by looking at, like, psychological distancing, which is a way to kind of look at how you see the world. And, generally, people that have recently, like, looked at a abstract art or gone through the experience will kind of see the world in a different way, and we measure that by kind of, like, even seeing, like, how they see themselves positioned to the rest of the world if they ask them to if we ask them to dry. So it's a really interesting thing because it promotes some pro environmental behaviors. It shapes how you think about yourself and your actions onto the world. So I think it's a really interesting aspect that, you know, can be really, uh, interesting for grocery retailers that are trying to promote their social good and environmental good personas to kind of get them to sort of think about, hey. Look. We're not just a brand that's fulfilling your needs, but we're trying to do better in the world. We're you know, what you're purchasing here is getting you to think broadly, and it's having this broad environmental impact. That's why you should pay a little bit more for this, like, you know, item that's comes from regenerative farming or organic farming or fair trade standards, for example. So there's a lot of interesting ways to promote that. Obviously, it's a little challenging to do that in the store, but I think, uh, I haven't yet found a way to how could you promote that? But, generally, you would expect that type of behavior from someone who is viewing abstract art or thinking about art in general. There's more aesthetic concepts just to be just a little bit more pro environmental, a little bit more considerate conscientious.

Stephanie 23:18 That is so cool. I feel like we should just fill all the grocery stores with abstract art, clearly. Right? ho is viewing abstract art or thinking about art in general. There's more aesthetic concepts just to be just a little bit more pro environmental, a little bit more considerate conscientious. That is so cool. I feel like we should just fill all the grocery stores with abstract art, clearly. Right?

Hassan 23:23 Yeah. Well, there's fun studies where people just all they do is put abstract art on their packaging and at least people to think it's more premium, and that's the only difference. Right? It tastes different, tastes better. You can do a lot of interesting taste is such an interesting interaction there. So I know that's kind of one step beyond you've already purchased, but you can definitely, like, really modify taste based on the aesthetics of the packaging and what you put on there. And you see that with, like, the fancier chocolates or

Stephanie 23:50 Or the sparkly water. Yeah. Which is just water. How cool. Alright. Well, I have a a little bit of a gear switching question. So this relates to omnichannel retail. Do you have thoughts about how we address sort of the challenge of measuring consumer behavior across both physical stores and online platforms as well? And I think in particular, what I'm wondering about is, are there insights from one channel, I think so far we've been talking about in store, that can inform strategies even online retail settings, particularly in the context of groceries? ing consumer behavior across both physical stores and online platforms as well? And I think in particular, what I'm wondering about is, are there insights from one channel, I think so far we've been talking about in store, that can inform strategies even online retail settings, particularly in the context of groceries?

Hassan 24:22 Yeah. It's a really interesting question because, generally, we see trends in the market of people moving towards or at least being aware of or trying online, uh, grocery retail. I think that's just becoming the logistical network for that is coming more and more online, so it's becoming more possible to do that. That being said, like, as much as there are overlaps, it really does it's still early days to be able to tell the difference between, like, you know, can we carry over learnings? So online retail has been long, uh, sort of behavior that people have gotten used to, and there's very specific things related to that. The time limited sales, the way the pricing is done, how quickly the pricing changes, how quickly promotions change, That doesn't happen in a grocery store. Um, if you're driving to a grocery store, if you saw, you know, that promotions were changing and this sale was gonna end in three hours, you would be really upset. But online, we're like, oh, how do I need to do this? I need to log on before this ends. So there's there's a lot of different behaviors. And especially in grocery, it's also something that as consumers, we're learning. And I think as retailers work in this kind of feedback cycle of like, hey. Let me try to see how you build a basket online. What are you okay with trusting for? Like, are you gonna order your fish and your seafood, those types of things online, or are you gonna go into the store? And then, generally, the experience online, I think, is just not in terms of the UX. In terms of the CX, it's just not as rich as what you see. So I know earlier you were talking about, like, as you shop a store, you end up buying things you didn't think. Online, we hear from customers that, like, people actually like that experience. Like, as much as people like being they're open to that. Right? They're receptive to that. So but online, it's a little harder to do that just because, like, you don't want so many things. If there's only one two d screen, you're not kind of walking through a space. You're not looking into products. You can't pick it up. So just some really, really interesting differences. And and then, of course, like, there's this whole other world of, like, delivery and the fulfillment person, and this kinda comes to, like, your personal identity. Right? If you're vegan and you or if you're shopping for your child, like, maybe you wanna get avocados and bananas that are a certain way. But, of course, your grocery picker, how do you communicate that to them? So there's some really, like, a distance between, like, people struggle with those types of things. But at the same other end of the spectrum, people are so happy that if you're disabled or if or in general, if you're a time limited parent or you're working, you're a student, you you just get some groceries delivered to your footstep with how overwhelming our world can become. Like, some people just don't like interacting with humans. I and I think we can all be like that sometimes. So I think there's, like, this general option and openness to it, but it's a challenging thing to carry over right now just because it's so so developing, I would say, especially in the online world, and then things are merging as well. Like, as that happens, especially with retailers like Amazon and Walmart, which have both online and in store presences in, like, a very real way. I I know other every other store does that too, but in a very real way, they have marketplaces. How can you blend in that? Can you sort of bring in information that the online customer really likes, that we know that a customer is opening up their app to look up this product anyway when they're shopping in the store. Is that gonna start to appear? What can we do to bring the best of both experiences? It's still an open question, but a really interesting one. ng in information that the online customer really likes, that we know that a customer is opening up their app to look up this product anyway when they're shopping in the store. Is that gonna start to appear? What can we do to bring the best of both experiences? It's still an open question, but a really interesting one.

Stephanie 27:31 It really is. And, I mean, it sounds like part of the reason why you can't just translate findings from in store to online is because it's actually quite a different experience.

Hassan 27:41 It is. Absolutely.

Stephanie 27:42 So, Hassan, in grocery retail, we know the differentiation is key, not just through product features, but also through the consumer experience. How can behavioral science help brands better understand how to differentiate their products, of course, but also to create differentiated tailored experiences that resonate on a psychological level with consumers. the differentiation is key, not just through product features, but also through the consumer experience. How can behavioral science help brands better understand how to differentiate their products, of course, but also to create differentiated tailored experiences that resonate on a psychological level with consumers.

Hassan 28:03 I think, especially for the in store channel, I think the experience becomes really important because people are putting this effort into drive over, and they're making the decision. And sometimes, you know, convenience, we know, is is a really big factor when you're shopping in store. So the experience plays a big role. The experience helps shape how premium the store feels, how, you know, how much warmth there is. But, generally, I think it's about understanding your customer at a level of, like, who is coming through the door. You know, can we provide not only the experience for you, the buyer, but your families? So can we provide the fruit that's for kids? Can we provide the smaller carts that's for kids? Can we can we have experiences that make it just a delight? And I think that's where technology can play a big role as well where, you know, like, you can kind of interact with different types of technology while you're in the store. And that does that make kind of elevate the experience beyond just looking at a aisle? Because I think, you know, as we I think consumers are burdened with a ton of choices and can start to sometimes feel like you're doing you're buying the same things over and over again. You go to the store. Why does it why do you have to do kind of this labor? Can we make the experience just a little bit nicer and easier for you? Can we provide you just a little bit of more information to make that decision fatigue easier, whether it's through integrating, like, a digital component or just in store, like, making that organization a little bit easier? And, you know, like, if you go to a bookstore, for example, oftentimes, they do a really good job of, like, employees providing their insights into, like, why did we pick this? And that's really resonating with, like, okay. That's something that I can only find here. So grocery stores and other retailer and grocery can kind of learn from that to understand, like, consumers are faced by choice. They're bombarded with this is healthy for you now. No way. It's not you know, like, if you look up is coffee good or bad, like, you'll find equal number of things every day and or chocolate, which, you know, I just stopped reading that news because I like chocolate too much. Like, I think it's just that you get overwhelmed, and then there's these different similar like, as much as you can make that cognitive fatigue of, like, decision easier, that's the ultimate thing, I think, in terms of experience. But, yeah, beyond that, just delighting the customer and not just the customer, like, who else is shopping with the customer, making it easy, making carts, you know, just the small things that end up actually shaping why you would return somewhere beyond price. Like, of course, we know that price, especially in this economy, is driving a lot of purchase behaviors. But once you can compete on that, where are other places we can find dividends? Like, experience is definitely the next thing. e small things that end up actually shaping why you would return somewhere beyond price. Like, of course, we know that price, especially in this economy, is driving a lot of purchase behaviors. But once you can compete on that, where are other places we can find dividends? Like, experience is definitely the next thing.

Stephanie 30:26 I love that example of the employee reviews because it reminds me of I'm gonna mention a competitor. Uh, Trader Joe's, I feel like, has always done that. They have always done the thing where they're like, let me tell you about this Apple and why we love it. And, I mean, I fall for it every time. I'm like, that just sounds amazing. Thank you for this recommendation. So it probably works.

Julie 30:47 Switching back kind of over to thinking of the science of it, so looking at the future of the shopping experience. But if we go back and look at the future of the science, what do you see as some of the biggest opportunities for innovation in measuring consumer sentiment and behavior in the grocery store space? What are those things that brands and researchers can do to kind of stay ahead of the curve when it comes to tech and consumer preferences evolving so quickly? ure of the science, what do you see as some of the biggest opportunities for innovation in measuring consumer sentiment and behavior in the grocery store space? What are those things that brands and researchers can do to kind of stay ahead of the curve when it comes to tech and consumer preferences evolving so quickly?

Hassan 31:12 One of the challenges that I think there is a lot of opportunity in is longitudinal measurements and what kind of happens outside of the grocery store because I think it's easy to kind of just because you have this purchase data, you have what's happening in the store, you're trying different promotional things. But, ultimately, one grocery store shopping as a behavior is something that fits into a broader scheme of things in our life, and there's you're building a list. Right? So, like, do you have a smart home device that you can kind of support that with? What are you doing to help building the list? So you're easier going back to, like, the idea of decision fatigue, and can we make that easier for people to just shop, not just while they're in a store, but before they get to the store? And then what happens afterwards? So, like, measurements, I think diary studies is one of my favorite methodologies to use in grocery because as much as I'd like to shop along or surveys, I I think it just being able to capture that full picture and the repeated picture, and you oftentimes find, like, there's just that timeline of things. And I think that's just kind of been a general theme in, like, the way that I've done research going back to the aesthetics research is, like, I think let's look at things over time. Let's add that time dimension. So I I think that's definitely the biggest area for innovation, and you can expand that into there's some really interesting companies out there that will if you have a product, you can kind of attach a sensor to it, for example, and you can see how people are using it. So, like, you can kind of see over time, like, what had actually happened. Things that generally end up being invisible, and we spent a lot of money and and time on, and maybe we're in the wrong but but just a little bit of investment in getting beyond that. I also think that we could be a lot better with elicitation in the store. Right? So, like, some of the the ways that we generally and, I mean, we as, like, a retail, uh, industry, you have a simple, you know, like, are we doing great or not? I have a survey button where you can respond for your receipt. But I think as it's becoming easier and easier to process and record qualitative feedback, just being able to kind of capture that a little bit more easier. And I think people have a lot of opinions, and we tend to get biased opinions or extreme opinions. So, like, just capturing that in general, like and then you hear that from your friends. And I think so that's that's what tells you that, like, you know, clearly people are opinionated, but we're not capturing that. So there is there were definitely missing. And I think that's just a general consumer level, like, you know, are we capturing everything? Are we just capturing when people are upset or or really happy? So can we bring in those things? And as we move into more and more personalized purchasing, I think that becomes really interesting because then you can understand, like, why didn't this person like it? And can we understand the consumer segment more as opposed to just knowing this was bad, this was good? really happy? So can we bring in those things? And as we move into more and more personalized purchasing, I think that becomes really interesting because then you can understand, like, why didn't this person like it? And can we understand the consumer segment more as opposed to just knowing this was bad, this was good?

Stephanie 33:42 Makes a lot of sense. Do you guys ever do, like, just straight up intercept research where you catch people on their way out and ask those questions? And then because I'm just thinking you don't have as biased a sample. Right? It's not people who are wildly unhappy or happy. It's you're also getting the in betweens as well.

Hassan 33:57 Yeah. That's a great point. That's essentially the best analog of, like, what would be great if we could just do that all the time, like an intercept AI moderator or something. But, yes, that is one of, like, the primary methodologies because that's not bias. It's relatively easy to do in terms of, like, you don't have to recruit people, and it's in the moment. So there's a lot of things to like about it. And then it gives you, like, the first pass of, like, okay. We're seeing something here. Let's dig into it more by, like, shopping along with people or doing more of a follow-up study or looking into the analytics there. But, yeah, groceries, like, intercepts are the bread and butter.

Stephanie 34:30 That makes a ton of sense. I really had not used that kind of methodology much until I had an airport study once, and I was like, I don't know how we're gonna do this. And then I was like, wait a minute. Captive audience. Like, they're all here. All we have to do is go there and talk to them.

Hassan 34:45 And people love to share. That's the that's the thing. Right? I think it's like, but they would never share that otherwise. Like, a lot of people just don't know or they don't wanna fill out a survey, but you just need to stop them and then you kinda just wait and they will share as much as, you know, like you wanna hear.

Stephanie 34:59 Well, Hassan, this has been super interesting today getting to talk to you about all these fascinating methodologies. And then also just the retail, um, I find in in grocery context is just really interesting. So appreciate the time. As we start to wrap up, there's a question, and if you've listened to the podcast, you know, that we always like to ask. In your case, let's think about, like, folks who are just starting out in the world of consumer insights, maybe particularly in retail, who are interested in exploring some of these more advanced or unique approaches. What advice would you give them in terms of learning more about the application of behavioral science and advanced analytics? Like, does everybody need to get a PhD to do this kind of research? umer insights, maybe particularly in retail, who are interested in exploring some of these more advanced or unique approaches. What advice would you give them in terms of learning more about the application of behavioral science and advanced analytics? Like, does everybody need to get a PhD to do this kind of research?

Hassan 35:42 I get that question a lot from colleagues or your friends that are like, oh, um, it's a complicated question because it's so hard to come up with a counterfactual, but my short answer is no. Absolutely, you do not need a PhD. And I think there is first principle things that you do learn from just, like, diving into the literature, but I think, generally, it's about interest. And I think you know that, like I mentioned, like, I have always kind of felt that, like, I'm noticing these things and and and the curiosity that you have. So, like, it's more so, do you find yourself curious about these things? Is that something that stands out to you, or do you have to force yourself to think about behaviors in the retail setting or behaviors or analytics? Do you wonder how grocery store is doing based on the promotion that they put out? Right? And if you have that level of curiosity, like, uh, that is the only thing that you need because anything else, you could go to school and you can kind of get sidetracked by some really, really interesting things. But if you don't come back with that curiosity, ultimately, it's not gonna help you in that setting. It might help you in the academic setting or other settings, but I think the fundamental thing I'll say is, like, you know, like, just kind of like a self reflection of, like, is this something well, I I just like, you know, burning question. Like, am I really curious about, like, how this is doing or, like, what are they trying to do here? I wanna I wanna talk to the manager to understand. Like, if you find yourself thinking like that, and I think you're you're kind of in the right space for that's the kind of curiosity and passion you need to to do well and just everything kind of from there aligns because the questions kinda lead the way. There's always the what is so abundant when it comes to the retail world. You have tons of data. You can split it in different ways, and you can measure behavior in different ways. And so it's more so, like, you know, the the curiosity behind it.

Stephanie 37:17 Excellent. Makes so much sense. Well, again, we are so grateful for your time today. This has been fascinating, and we appreciate you coming on podcast. The Curiosity Current is brought to you by AYTM. To find out how AYTM helps brands connect with consumers and bring insights to life, visit aytm.com. And to make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the Curiosity Current on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time.